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  • Another intermediate target

    Has anybody tried to have an intermediate target right of the ball (for a right hand golfer)?

  • #2
    You mean behind the ball?

    Comment


    • #3
      Yes, for example in front of the rear foot.

      The reason I ask, I used that in the last 5 rounds and the average was 1 over par, lost no ball.

      First advantage for me, it is much easier, to set up square.
      With he intermediate target left of the ball (basically outside of the stance) I had some issues.

      Second advantage for me, it heals my strong tendency to go immediately to the inside with the backswing.
      I know, Shawn preaches always, the backswing will match the target out there, but I never could do that regularly.
      Now my throughswing matches the backswing, which I can perform easily correct, simply let it sweep over the intermediate target.

      BTW, another reason for the good results is keeping the eyes on a spot, here I do exactly, what Shawn recommends.
      I worked in the last weeks on my technique, and as usual, after some time, it went south, too much internal thinking, not only on the range, also outside on the course.
      So I decided, finetuning is finished and I have to go back to an appropriate task.
      For shots from the grass I let a small gap between the ball and the clubface, I see the grass leaves there and the task is to cut them.
      As I get better as a gardener, I also get better as a golfer.
      For drives I clip the tip of tee with the sole of my driver.
      It‘s like Harvey Pennik, „take dead aim“.

      Comment


      • COSTA103
        COSTA103 commented
        Editing a comment
        Thank you, Marcus....
        I like your "square setup" alignment concept! That seems to make a lot of sense?

        I will bear this in mind going forward.

        dude abides

      • Cally
        Cally commented
        Editing a comment
        Hi Alpine,

        On your second point, taking the club back too much to the inside has been a nemesis in my swing, and for the longest time I didn't even realize I was doing this. I can see how your idea of an "intermediate" point behind the ball (for example in front of the rear foot) could help as a sort of a checkpoint to keep the swing on plane in the takeaway, and into the backswing.

        So if I understand your idea correctly of "Another Intermediate Target," depending on one's perspective, an "intermediate" point can be in front of the ball (for the through swing) or also behind the ball (for the takeaway/backswing).

        At any rate, thanks for the reminder on the takeaway as this is something that I need to stay aware of in my swing.

    • #4
      Thanks Costa for your kind comment.

      Its funny watching Savvy in the latest premium video „left side of the range“.
      She has obviously the same issues for squaring correctly and to find the appropriate backswing path with the intermediate target in front like me,

      Comment


      • COSTA103
        COSTA103 commented
        Editing a comment
        Yeah.....I noticed that too.
        However, you'll notice that I don't believe that our Chairman suggested an "intermediate point" to the REAR of the ball?

        His "concept" was the same....
        We may find that YOUR application is as, if not more, effective.
        Well done, my friend.
        Sometimes, what appear to be very minor differences in interpretation can have a dramatic impact.

        dude abides

    • #5
      Hi Alpine - Greetings WIG Friends Everywhere..

      I'll be a bit cautious with this one in that 'concept blending' is a dangerous mixture ..

      so on my very weak tiptoes.. here we go..

      the concept of 'intermediate target' or 'target proxy' .. is pretty crucial .. in that unless we can anatomically sort this out somehow .. we're all stuck playing this game standing a bit parallel 'inside' to where the target is. We all need some kind of sense of where our intention is linked to our action.. then, to me at least - there's that bit of not only anatomy but the working bits of our senses that also come into play.

      while we gather information with our senses - we actually interpret with our brains and how they are respectively wired makes a difference ..

      I've thrown this out there before .. mostly to an indifferent set of audiences (and I suppose that should tell me something right away..but I've yet to get the hint..)

      but - it may become necessary for some to learn how they're 'seeing what they're seeing'..

      here's the blending concepts bit ..

      my interpretation of what Alpine is offering .. is that he is relating the concept of intermediate target to what some might describe as resulting 'club path' and takeaway from the ball ..

      Shawn would say that 'eye dominance does not matter' .. hard for me to argue that .. but I've found that it matters to me at least .. and I've spent some seasons sorting that out .. mostly better now..

      and back to the point..

      Alpine might be a bit Right Eye Dominant .. and also working conceptually with the sense of seeing the action square and parallel working back and away from the ball.. as long as he consistently sets up that way and adjusts for club length and the varying lofts/lies/eyelines/toplines of his clubs, he's probably OK - and just would need to spend time at range sessions being conscious of his target and setup lines..

      there are risks to this methodology - frankly I try and do something similar .. and it mostly works for me .. the potential exposure is that you can get draw 'inside' your lines and get a bit stuck ..so you've got to be very disciplined about how you practice seeing, aligning and taking the club away.. it's a very serious bit of business ..

      again - you can see that I've run a bit far with my sense of what Alpine is saying .. but I believe that he locked into a visualization of a better clubhead path in relation to his target line .. and played some very good golf as a result.

      I have offered this before as well .. and mostly again to a bit of indifference.. but if you have the space and want to know.. put a flag some yards away..and drop a rope line or some straight visual chalk or other marking from it to where you plan on practicing your stance and alignment and get a very real idea of what that actually looks like - it might surprise you.

      next time you go to the range observe how much action that is not connected to the target is taking place .. (I don't stand apart from it ..I own my lack of focus)

      relate that disconnect to any hope of progress or progress with instruction ..

      if you're not connected how can you ever experience the whole thing?

      thanks as always for indulging my ramble..

      apologies in advance to Alpine and the forum for the misuse of his ideas ..which I return to the thread mostly intact.

      cheers

      k_f
      from the hidden Ravine below 13th at CN G&CC
      tu nunquam hic

      Secret Swing Tech c/o Pigaman @ Crackpot Labs

      wisdomingolf.com/index.php?option=com_ku...&id=47972&Itemid=225

      let energy instead of style define you.

      Proud Member 'Quote Yourself Club'

      Comment


      • #6
        A spot behind the ball would not be considered “intermediate “
        Though I do use spot on the ground behind the ball sometimes to focus on when putting I will even tap on that spot just prior to the stroke

        Comment


        • #7
          A famous saying from Albert Einstein is „Intelligenz kommt nicht von ungefähr, sondern von ganz genau“.
          Sorry, wrong language, but in German this is a wonderful double meaning and fits perfectly to your comment.
          Yes, you are correct and I was not precise.

          Anyhow, my post simply refers to the often quoted intermediate target from Shawn and should be of course a little bit provocative.

          Comment


          • #8
            Cally, yes your understanding is correct and yes, this approach helps tremendously to start on a better path and not too much to the inside

            Comment


            • Cally
              Cally commented
              Editing a comment
              Thanks for the confirmation Alpine!

              For what it's worth, I have a few "feels" that also help with my takeaway.

              One is my top hand on the grip (left hand for me) is like an underhand move into the takeaway/backswing with the inner part of my left bicep feeling like it's fused to my left pec (Shawn has described this feeling too). And as I do this my hands feel like they pass close to my right thigh, and over my right foot as the clubface is sort of "looking at the ball" for the first few feet of the takeaway/backswing. Once at the top of my backswing my left arm is essentially in line to where it can basically fall down the swing plane without having to manipulate anything.

              These "feels" for me keep my forearms from rotating over too soon as I move into the backswing. If my forearms rotate too soon then my left hand is no longer in an underhand orientation to the takeaway/backswing, and my left arm moves out and away from my body while my right elbow moves back and behind my body which brings the club back too far to the inside. If I do this then my arms are stuck behind me at the top of the backswing, and I have to reroute to get them back out in front of me.

              Do you have similar takeaway/backswing "feels" too?

          • #9
            Originally posted by Cally View Post
            Hi Alpine,

            On your second point, taking the club back too much to the inside has been a nemesis in my swing, and for the longest time I didn't even realize I was doing this. I can see how your idea of an "intermediate" point behind the ball (for example in front of the rear foot) could help as a sort of a checkpoint to keep the swing on plane in the takeaway, and into the backswing.

            So if I understand your idea correctly of "Another Intermediate Target," depending on one's perspective, an "intermediate" point can be in front of the ball (for the through swing) or also behind the ball (for the takeaway/backswing).

            At any rate, thanks for the reminder on the takeaway as this is something that I need to stay aware of in my swing.
            Hi Cally

            I believe that these ideas are at the heart of things -

            that's to say that if the (or those checkpoints) on the clubhead takeaway path - directly relate to the actual line of intention or target line .. you're in business ..

            that's action to target vs. an action that finds the ball ..

            my speculation is that in the early going .. so many of us find actions, grips and resulting motions that can put energy into the ball and often find the ball - and we learn to play to them vs. capturing the sense of how the target dictates the action..

            it's a long climb out of that ..and then up the actual lessons that need to be learned..

            I think what we're talking about here in this thread is much more important than it might first appear.

            cheers for now

            k_f
            from the hidden Ravine below 13th at CN G&CC
            tu nunquam hic

            Secret Swing Tech c/o Pigaman @ Crackpot Labs

            wisdomingolf.com/index.php?option=com_ku...&id=47972&Itemid=225

            let energy instead of style define you.

            Proud Member 'Quote Yourself Club'

            Comment


            • Cally
              Cally commented
              Editing a comment
              Hi Kid,

              I couldn't agree more!

              I came to realize that the "clubhead takeaway path" is so critical, and a huge key in the swing. If this initial part of the swing (the takeaway) is correct (for the shot we intend) then it goes a long way to allowing the rest of the swing to literally fall in place (without having to reroute or manipulate things during the later part of the swing).

          • #10
            No problem, because I always have a task which relates to the real target, like throwing the club or cutting the grass under the ball.
            For me it is like that. The reference point right of the ball (I am no longer allowed to call that intermediate point) gives me a path for the backswing and also a path (the very same path) from that point to the ball, so I am in business direction wise.

            Comment


            • COSTA103
              COSTA103 commented
              Editing a comment
              WHO says that "...(you) are no longer allowed to call that intermediate point..."?

              I call for an immediate RECALL on THAT point???

              dude abides

          • #11
            Hi Guys

            these points already speak for themselves ..and I'm going to temporarily appropriate them (think of it as creative borrowing) and add a bit of narrative to it.. please feel free to disavow as this is clearly my thinking not necessarily yours.. so here goes:
            • Alpineberlinette
              Alpineberlinette replied
              2 minutes ago
              No problem, because I always have a task which relates to the real target, like throwing the club or cutting the grass under the ball.
              For me it is like that. The reference point right of the ball (I am no longer allowed to call that intermediate point) gives me a path for the backswing and also a path (the very same path) from that point to the ball, so I am in business direction wise.
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            • Cally
              Cally commented on kid_fullerene's reply
              6 minutes ago
              Hi Kid,

              I couldn't agree more!

              I came to realize that the "clubhead takeaway path" is so critical, and a huge key in the swing. If this initial part of the swing (the takeaway) is correct (for the shot we intend) then it goes a long way to allowing the rest of the swing to literally fall in place (without having to reroute or manipulate things during the later part of the swing).

            here's the 'read' on this..

            you get a path that relates directly to the target as represented by the Intermediate Point .. and you stay true to that path ..you can realistically expect to have an 'automatic swing 'or at least an automation of your task.

            your experience of that might vary a bit ..depending on what task type or analogy feels most comfortable for you in general or for that particular shot - but you become your own golf swing as you're congruent with the golf shot vs. trying to fit a sort of action into a narrow window.

            I think we're pretty close to describing to ourselves and to one another an aspect of the Chairman's message (maybe his most crucial one) that he never leaves the target .. because he doesn't .

            it all relates and in this sort of way.

            now - that is probably just the lobby of a much grander 'hotel of thought' that Shawn has - but I'm happy that we've at least found the right address..

            cheers for now

            k_f
            from the hidden Ravine below 13th at CN G&CC
            tu nunquam hic

            Secret Swing Tech c/o Pigaman @ Crackpot Labs

            wisdomingolf.com/index.php?option=com_ku...&id=47972&Itemid=225

            let energy instead of style define you.

            Proud Member 'Quote Yourself Club'

            Comment


            • #12
              It was dlam 😀

              Comment


              • #13
                Hi guys,

                I just want to interject myself into this conversation for a minute.....

                I COMPLETELY AGREE with the BASIC PREMISE of Marcus' original concept???

                Let us NOT dismiss concepts like this because they differ SEMANTICALLY??

                To MY way of thinking the SWING goes in TWO directions....

                ONE.....AWAY from the Target....
                The other in the DIRECTION of the Target....

                I fail to see why anyone would argue that "aiding" the direction of the swing AWAY from the Target is in any way a detriment??

                Again.....Well done, Marcus.

                (I'll go away quietly now....)

                dude abides

                "OLD" Forum Participation

                Entry Date: 18-JAN-2011
                Posts: 1813
                Thank You: 1048

                "Be water, my friends"

                Comment


                • Cally
                  Cally commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Perhaps another WIG acronym is in order for the alternate "intermediate" point to the rear of the ball in the swing AWAY from the Target. I'll let others decide, but may I suggest the acronym "M I P" which would stand for the "Marcus Intermediate Point."

                • COSTA103
                  COSTA103 commented
                  Editing a comment
                  I "second" Cally's motion....

                  dude abides

                • Ron I
                  Ron I commented
                  Editing a comment
                  I see this point with an arrow giving me the direction for my club path.
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