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  • visualization ..varies by method?

    WIG Friends..

    this is a bit of a placeholder as I get this little marker in the ground and see where this might lead.

    My intuitive leap would be that visualization might well be different by technique..

    and what I've been describing as optics ... a sort of construct ..might well be a bit of an abstraction ..

    that's to say..

    what somebody needs to do to build a 'target picture' might relate to whether they're walking into the shot and then directing the resulting swing with their now sideways walk and arm drop..

    vs. what somebody who is swinging with their arms needs to do to align and conceptualize a target relationship..

    a clue might be .. swinging one's shoulder line .. and having them parallel vs. what might be called a dynamic alignment in WIG and similar swing philosophies..

    I'll do some digging ..

    and be back around...

    maybe there's something to this..

    cheers

    k_f
    from the hidden Ravine below 13th at CN G&CC
    tu nunquam hic

    Secret Swing Tech c/o Pigaman @ Crackpot Labs

    wisdomingolf.com/index.php?option=com_ku...&id=47972&Itemid=225

    let energy instead of style define you.

    Proud Member 'Quote Yourself Club'

  • #2
    Hi WIG Friends..

    have found this and begun to work through Eric's ideas...

    realizing and stipulating that Shawn has his own teachings on this in terms of recognizing and constructing a target picture and corresponding alignment and setup... please take this as sort of a 'super set' or discussion of what the need set and brain mechanics are that one could potentially tap into and organize.

    the out of context key phrase that I tapped into is 'Pattern Recognition' within the Athletic Brain in communication with the Thinking Brain .. that's to say that you can't think or talk your way into an Athletic movement .. the Athletic Brain basically recognizes pictures..

    the conjecture I would put into this is that it's HOW you construct the picture that is sent .. can make a world a difference to how your Athletic Brain sees and reacts/processes it.



    a way to maybe think of it .. and I'm just throwing this out there..

    are you processing and predicting the movement first .. ie: there it goes.. (elephant walk)

    or are you anchored and processing the construct first .. ie: structure like 'train tracks' ..

    I think from a dialog standpoint we so often end up at the 'it's all the same at impact" .. ignoring that the internal life and journey of the swing might well be substantially different..

    from a pattern recognition standpoint .. we tend to process out somebody else's pattern by comparing it to our own existing construct and then working through a sort of confirmation ..

    'well that functions just like X' -- THEREFORE .. (fill in the conceptual blanks)

    and then the inevitable question .. 'so why don't you or can't you see it or experience it the way I'M doing it"

    oh yeah .. here's part 2



    not sure if this is any help to anybody ..

    but I guess the message might be - it's OK to see it differently .. but start from a center of understanding how you're seeing it and what boxes you have to check internally to improve your experience and create a more complete picture for yourself to create a shot that fits..

    I'm sure there will be more to follow ..

    cheers for now

    k_f

    from the hidden Ravine below 13th at CN G&CC
    tu nunquam hic

    Secret Swing Tech c/o Pigaman @ Crackpot Labs

    wisdomingolf.com/index.php?option=com_ku...&id=47972&Itemid=225

    let energy instead of style define you.

    Proud Member 'Quote Yourself Club'

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi WIG Friends..

      quick Primer on Pattern Recognition - pretty useful and has the virtue of being informational and brief

      key phrase - 'how one organizes information is 'baked in' ..' one might be predisposed to organizing environmental information in a particular way.. or ways..

      how you lay patterns down and then match them up later athletically would have a distinct impact on how you draw up a picture ?? seems probable..



      and a slightly longer form discussion on Gestalt Principles on how things are organized..

      might apply - I'm still noodling through this..



      as always .. hope that this is of some help to you..

      cheers for now

      k_f
      from the hidden Ravine below 13th at CN G&CC
      tu nunquam hic

      Secret Swing Tech c/o Pigaman @ Crackpot Labs

      wisdomingolf.com/index.php?option=com_ku...&id=47972&Itemid=225

      let energy instead of style define you.

      Proud Member 'Quote Yourself Club'

      Comment


      • Ron I
        Ron I commented
        Editing a comment
        Pattern recognition video explains the learning theory that you learn something new by relating it to something you already know. This is shown to be true in learning higher levels of cognition.

    • #4
      Hi WIG Friends..

      Top Down .. Bottom Up..



      assuming you are open to Gestalt organizational methodology ..

      here's a sort of framework that might be useful..

      just a high level guess - I'd put WIG forward as an example of Top Down ..

      and then pose the question .. and so, what of 'Bottom Up"?

      I would offer .. and this is strictly guesswork..

      that Bottom Up might well be a sort of need to put the data together in a 'Train Track' or potentially more seemingly rigid structure to interact with..

      vs. Top Down .. which uses existing background knowledge to influence perception and prediction..

      Shawn uses for example - a lot of analogies.. and taps that awareness of ..'this is like.." and you can use that Athletic Brain to then predict how you can now do ..(fill in the golfing crossover)..

      seem right>?

      ask yourself this??

      is that potentially enough for a more analytical or data driven type .. maybe like Mr. Wooltie, for example?

      I suspect and would put forward that his construct might vary from that standard and internally require some other sorts of verification or verifying process.

      and that might well frustrate those who literally see, predict and cross over in a more 'Top Down' sort of fashion.

      if nothing else .. it's a potentially interesting jumping off point for a discussion beyond the ... 'how do you not see this?'

      well..

      it's a start..

      cheers

      k_f
      from the hidden Ravine below 13th at CN G&CC
      tu nunquam hic

      Secret Swing Tech c/o Pigaman @ Crackpot Labs

      wisdomingolf.com/index.php?option=com_ku...&id=47972&Itemid=225

      let energy instead of style define you.

      Proud Member 'Quote Yourself Club'

      Comment


      • #5
        Originally posted by Ron I View Post
        Pattern recognition video explains the learning theory that you learn something new by relating it to something you already know. This is shown to be true in learning higher levels of cognition.
        Ron

        which is exactly right ..

        and to 'thin slice' this ..

        if you're sort of 'pre-wired' to gather pattern data in a specific way

        and 'pre-wired' to then apply a pattern to it ..

        and that begins to constitute what you 'know' ...

        and maybe what you arrive at involves a sort of confirmation of pattern .. that you need to sort of cognitively apply a sort of overlay to be able to usefully 'let go' or apply gravity and momentum..

        might be foreign to some, perhaps even to many ..

        but might be the only way that some golfers can 'get there'

        a thought might be ..

        'tell me exactly how you see your shot into a swing picture'?

        I think the distinctions might 'kick right out' ... the different pattern types..

        thanks for jumping into this discussion ..

        cheers for now

        k_f
        from the hidden Ravine below 13th at CN G&CC
        tu nunquam hic

        Secret Swing Tech c/o Pigaman @ Crackpot Labs

        wisdomingolf.com/index.php?option=com_ku...&id=47972&Itemid=225

        let energy instead of style define you.

        Proud Member 'Quote Yourself Club'

        Comment


        • #6
          The way I understand Bottom Up learning is that it is a reaction to a stimulus. You see he cock pit of a jet and your response can be confusion. You touch a hot iron and you respond with a yell of pain. When you see the cock pit, the data you gather has no meaning to you. The data you gather from touching a glowing hot iron is pain. I see this as learning by experience or response to a stimulus.

          The way I understand Top Down learning is that learning or understanding is gained by relating the experience to something you already know or understand. When you look at a cock pit and see the handles, you remember handles from say a lawn mower control speed. When you see a glowing hot object (could be a hot iron), you relate back to your experience of pain and you learn from what you already know.

          My conclusion is that learning to play golf should be Top Down learning model. You relate new ideas to what you already know. Thus analogies are used. Someone could learn to play golf using the Bottom Up learning model but it would take a much much longer.

          Comment


          • #7
            Originally posted by Ron I View Post
            The way I understand Bottom Up learning is that it is a reaction to a stimulus. You see he cock pit of a jet and your response can be confusion. You touch a hot iron and you respond with a yell of pain. When you see the cock pit, the data you gather has no meaning to you. The data you gather from touching a glowing hot iron is pain. I see this as learning by experience or response to a stimulus.

            The way I understand Top Down learning is that learning or understanding is gained by relating the experience to something you already know or understand. When you look at a cock pit and see the handles, you remember handles from say a lawn mower control speed. When you see a glowing hot object (could be a hot iron), you relate back to your experience of pain and you learn from what you already know.

            My conclusion is that learning to play golf should be Top Down learning model. You relate new ideas to what you already know. Thus analogies are used. Someone could learn to play golf using the Bottom Up learning model but it would take a much much longer.
            Hi Ron

            thanks as always for your thoughtful and well reasoned reply ..

            it's also likely that I'm misusing the Gestalt Learning Top Down/Bottom Up model..

            as opposed to taking this as a 'learning golf as a whole' ..

            use the model as how one takes in and patterns a specific challenge or situation that must then be turned into a golf shot..

            I think that one might recognize, react and step into a shot .. doing something of a moving matching process??

            or

            one might need to establish a sort of more static pattern ..organizing the chaos into something that have a shot put into it??

            I realize that this whole bit might be a little like trying to wrestle smoke ..

            but I think that how one perceives and organizes the various information contributes to how one might then choose a movement pattern..

            again - this might be described generously as an inferential thing.. as there are a lot of teachers, methods, analogies, techniques and routines..

            working back from someone's 'pre-shot routine' and from there trying to extrapolate how he/she is processing and aligning/setting up and generating a shot..

            I suppose the open question

            is how does one arrive at matching a pattern to an intention..

            and both successful and unsuccessful golf shots can be arrived at in a variety of ways..

            is it merely a question of flawed technique?

            technique can be identified and improved ..

            and yet the swing flaw can almost instantly re-emerge..

            is that merely a lack of focus or intention, or ignorance of gravity?

            or is there some other reward or focus that comes into play that 'gets in the way'?

            this is not intended as rhetoric..

            I don't have answers to any of those questions..

            and I'm not even sure that those questions are even legit..

            hope it helps drive a useful discussion ..and some forward progress ..

            cheers

            k_f
            from the hidden Ravine below 13th at CN G&CC
            tu nunquam hic

            Secret Swing Tech c/o Pigaman @ Crackpot Labs

            wisdomingolf.com/index.php?option=com_ku...&id=47972&Itemid=225

            let energy instead of style define you.

            Proud Member 'Quote Yourself Club'

            Comment


            • #8
              Imho, this video below sort of simplifies an explanation of the learning process. You learn explicitly the technique (especially if you are a complete novice) but then improve upon what you've already learned implicitly (ie. without having an awareness of exactly how you are doing it). You work it out yourself.

              The problem we have in golf is the explicit part is just an opinion and if that is wrong your implicit learning might be affected by preconceived notions that you 'MUST' do this or that. But I'm suspecting , the better you learn implicitly the more your natural actions will override any errors made in the explicit coaching (especially if it didn't fit your own body idiosyncrasies) but only if you let it.

              Comment


              • #9
                Let's talk a bit about visualization on the course or range. To me, the golfer is visualizing a result, an outcome. I see the ball flying high off my 8 iron, soaring over the tree line, landing softly on a spot 10 feet on the green, checking up and stopping a foot from the pin. (Personally, I visualize more in pictures than in video, so I have to picture each part separately). "See it" was the phrase use in the video. The end result is the ball a foot from the pin, but the ball coming off my 8 iron is the result of my swing and contact with the ball. The entire ball fight is a result.

                I think the "See it" part is divorced from technique, or should be. After visualizing the result, the golfer moves onto the "feel it" part. The "feel it" part will be more technique specific, i.e. the golfer will feel what she has already learned to do to make the visualization happen. If the golfer uses "hinge and hold" for pitching, he will feel what is necessary to make that technique produce the result, if the golfer follows a different technique, she will feel it in the context of that technique.

                Shawn's teachings are in alignment with the above. He talks a great deal about having a clear picture of what you want to do, of keeping your focus on the target. "See it."

                He then talks about matching your swing to the target. "Feel it."

                Goldilocks helps the golfer feel the shot. "That's too little, that's too much, that's the feel that matches my visualization." When Shawn talks about alignment and goldilocks, "That feels too far right, that feels too far left, that is the alignment that matches my visualization." Same with ball position, same with tee height, etc.

                In this context, the golfer has already learned the technique, and has experience applying that technique (skill) to achieve outcomes.

                Skill acqisition is a bit different. Here, focus on the target creates an intent which guides the movements. Without a clear intent, the mind can't organize the body correctly to achieve the outcome. The classic example is over the top (OTT). OTT is the perfect move for your body to make if the intent (focus) is to hit the ball. If the golfer's intent is to swing to the target, OTT conflicts with that intent. The golfer is less likely to swing OTT.

                Schrodinger posted an interesting video. Shawn's method is much more implicit than explicit. "Stop the Insanity" is a rallying cry to move away from explicit teaching toward implicit learning.

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