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  • trebuchet vs wheeled trebuchet

    Just an observation of the swing action.

    Is it just me or does anyone share the opinion that the end over end whip to target is also moving toward target via the body turn?

    So you have a vertical move with also a targetwards move in combo. The target move is subtle and provided by body turn.

    It seems to me that this is more similar to a wheeled trebuchet rather than a static model.

    This swing thought will make it far easier to avoid any sense of flip and ball focus. It also means that good players catch the ball much earlier in the swing arc than the average player understands.

    I also think this ties in with power from ground up and many other good things.

    It also explains how and why Hogan thought his club was square to target longer than say the result of a single axis pivot.

    This is a great post of Rory swing if anyone is interested.

    If you look at the backside (ass) rear of Rory heading to target and think of it as the driver forward then this helps. In my opinion its almost like a wheeled trebuchet move.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwCYLJGX0Qw


    Any thoughts on this> guys?


    Last edited by Gmonkey; 2 weeks ago.

  • #2
    G,

    I think the ladies are still back looking at Rory's backside on youtube . I don't know if I understand the workings of a Trebuchet. I do know there's a couple very important aspects of the golf swing. 1) Having a directed action/task to a target. 2) Understanding how to maintain the proper structure of the body through the swing to keep that action/task on target. If one thought vs. the other keeps that structure a little better, and your results improve, I'd say stick with it.

    Revisit videos that talk about staying behind the doorframe - or tilted spiral - or keeping tilt. These are some of the best descriptions of how to maintain proper body structure that I've heard. Also, one of the best quotes Shawn says is to "Let the momentum of the swing release you to the target." What does that mean exactly? It means we are maintaining that tilted structure until the momentum of the swing pulls us out of it. When you get really good at this, you'll start to get that trebuchet feel without having to force anything. You'll feel everything unwind naturally TOWARDS THE TARGET with some relatively effortless power.

    Hopefully I didn't stray too far off topic...

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    • #3
      Hi GM ..hi WIG friends..

      before I get off in the weeds on this discussion..

      I'll throw a clarifying question into this -

      in your analogy of 'rolling or wheeled trebuchet' ..and illustration of Rory's swing as an example..

      are you describing a lateral shift towards the target by the golfer during the backswing or throughswing (or both)?

      I'm fairly sure of Shawn's description and examples of weight shift in the WIG swing ..and just trying to match your observations/questions into that if I can..

      cheers

      k_f
      from the hidden Ravine below 13th at CN G&CC
      tu nunquam hic

      Secret Swing Tech c/o Pigaman @ Crackpot Labs

      wisdomingolf.com/index.php?option=com_ku...&id=47972&Itemid=225

      let energy instead of style define you.

      Proud Member 'Quote Yourself Club'

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      • #4
        Im talking about the downswing and impact.

        What im saying is that for everyone who has always suspected a lateral aspect of the golf swing but has always wrongly thrown in a sway ....here it is. Or indeed never suspected any move to target and flipped.

        I always suspected some lateral aspect because you can see in the hand movement through the hit. A bad player tries throws the hands around the apex of his swing and there is not that linear movement of the hands. Just as in baseball.

        Now you guys know im a big believer in getting the angle of attack right. If we cast we can come into the ball with a different angle of attack and will probably start out trying to hit the ball on the appex of our swing. That is how 99% of golfers start with and why wouldnt we. That on first glance is what is going on.

        Ok So watch another clip of Rory (sorry about the music. and sorry its Rory again.... not like I have a man crush on him or anything !!! hahahaha)

        OK he winds up a massive shoulder turn.

        He then drops the club and his left hip will bump forward. Look carefully that hip bump will relocate the appex of the swing.

        He then will swing the club end over end from an angle that would appear unthinkable to a novice because they have not factored in two things.

        1. The move toward target.
        2. The fact that Rory will now catch that ball much earlier in his swing than the appex. So just to be clear. Hand someone a club and they are trying to whip at the ball and catch the ball on the appex of a swing. So say if your total swing curve is 1-10. Then Mr 20hcp over the top is catching the ball at point 5 of that swing and hitting ground and ball and pretty much the same time.

        Rory is catching that ball at point 3 in his swing. He has re-routed with that forward hip move and comes in at the correct angle of attack. An angle not possible with the thought of appex swing and no move to target.

        It is exactly how the hands travel through a top baseball player hit. They dont swat at the ball. There is a prolonged lateral hand path through the hit.

        This is how that is possible.

        For a bit of fun I would like people to be honest and state at what point in their swing do they think they contact the ball. Downswing only give the whole swing a score on 1-10.

        Tell me where you make contact on the 1-10 downswing scale. Swing without a ball and tell me. Dont tell me what you think I want to hear be honest. 1-10 where do you contact the ball.

        Be nice if everyone chipped in with a number. Perhaps even Shawn.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZKoY8Tghaw
        Last edited by Gmonkey; 2 weeks ago.

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi guys,

          gmonkey, I'd love to give you a number but I guess I do not understand....

          What is "1"; what is "10"?
          Are we talking about where our HANDS are when the clubface makes contact with the ball?
          What club are we swinging? (ball location would affect that?)

          I have not seen MY swing on video?

          But I have a sense that my hands are just to the target-side of the ball with the Driver (largely because the ball is further forward) and MORE to the target-side as the clubs get shorter.

          dude abides
          "OLD" Forum Participation

          Entry Date: 18-JAN-2011
          Posts: 1813
          Thank You: 1048

          "Be water, my friends"

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          • #6
            Hi Cost.

            You drop and swing. Give the downswing a time scale from 1-10. Where on that scale do you think you contact the ball?


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            • #7
              maybe it's me, but I still do not understand.
              Perhaps it's because I do NOT subscribe to the concept of "DOWNswing"?
              I view the term as a very UNfortunate choice from many years ago....
              Makes me think of swinging AT the ball; not TOWARDS my target?

              I prefer the term "THROUGH-swing".

              What is the OPPOSITE of "down"?
              How come we do not refer to the swing components as UP-swing and Down-swing?

              What is the OPPOSITE OF "back" (as in BACK-swing)
              Therefore we would have BACK-swing and THROUGH-swing

              So, in MY mind if I give the "downswing" a time scale of 1 - 10....
              Is 10 where my swing begins to "flatten" out? (read: no longer traveling DOWN?)
              Or is 10 the conclusion of my Follow-Through?

              So, I guess I view my swing as BACK and THROUGH; not down?
              But I have NO downswing to report?

              I'd be happy to participate in your poll, however to be frank, I'm not sure of what value the consensus will provide?

              love this place and you guys
              dude abides
              "OLD" Forum Participation

              Entry Date: 18-JAN-2011
              Posts: 1813
              Thank You: 1048

              "Be water, my friends"

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              • #8
                Yes Costa I agree a through swing is better term. I just use terms that others have defined so we understand what we are talking about.

                You of all people should know how hard it is to describe one thing to another person over the internet.

                I think it would be impossible to convey anything if I indulged in making up my own terms for every action. Ohh well.

                So. Drop and through swing.

                Yes 10 would be the conclusion of the follow through.......see we are getting somewhere!!!!

                So when do you believe you make contact with the ball?

                Its not a trick question im genuinely interested in your answer. Just an estimate. No need to video your swing.

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                • #9
                  So.....we've identified what "10" is....

                  Is "1" the start of the takeaway? Or is "1" when the "back"-swing ends? Or when the "fall" begins (note: they're NOT the same thing?)

                  If "1" is when the "fall" begins, then the PRE-contact time duration is SHORTER than the POST-contact time duration.
                  That's largely due to the LENGTH of the "follow-through".

                  In that case, I'd give it a "4"; maybe a 3.5. Closer to 3 with irons...

                  Hope this helps you answer your question.
                  Or perhaps I continue to be unclear of the question...

                  dude abides
                  Last edited by COSTA103; 2 weeks ago.
                  "OLD" Forum Participation

                  Entry Date: 18-JAN-2011
                  Posts: 1813
                  Thank You: 1048

                  "Be water, my friends"

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                  • #10
                    I suppose its not that easy to convey where I think the swing begins in writing. Or even agree on a definition of when the swing begins haha.

                    Perhaps you are right that we can only go from set up or follow through and picking a number from 1-10 with number 1 being takeaway. Thats scale of info would make the data useless.

                    OK lets go with your pre contact duration is shorter than post contact time. That will do for now.

                    I find it very hard to convey ideas without the assumption that a third party can 'get' what im saying. Its very frustrating!!!!

                    hmmmmm yes I see the problem in what I have attempted.

                    In my mind im asking a very simple question. But without all the internal assumptions I have then its impossible for a third party to answer meaninfully.

                    Hmmmmm.






                    Last edited by Gmonkey; 2 weeks ago.

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                    • #11
                      G - I see what you're getting at. I guess I've never considered it. I just predict that contact will be made somewhere along the arc. To me the end of the swing would be the release. A proper followthrough is just a consequence of a proper release to the target. With that in mind I'd say around "5" - If the end of the followthrough is the end of the swing then sure maybe 3 or 4.

                      I guess my question would be -- is this something you're attempting to learn to help you improve? Or is this something where you're just curious about how the swing works? I've found that keeping it simple is always the best route. Just get out there and predict that contact will be made on the way to the target!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hi WIG Friends..

                        OK ..back from the weeds..thanks to GM for getting back with me on the notion of what you are describing as lateral shift being on the down or through ..basically the 'piece' of your swing that is working subsequent to the extension of your arms and prior to the completed finish.

                        so rather than try to quantify this ..as I'm probably not capable..

                        let me offer this...

                        what I think I 'hear' you trying to describe in your swing is a sort of comparison between what you're experiencing vs. what you see Shawn demonstrating.

                        if I had to write that out as a statement it would be something like this:

                        'I have a lateral shift in my swing and I see it it Rory's and so there must be one in the WIG swing.'

                        something like that..is that right?

                        OK - that gets back to my initial question which was ...'where is YOUR shift?'

                        as in WIG ..Shawn so often describes it as happening BEHIND him ..and then into a 'Plant/Brace/Fall'

                        what I think I am perceiving in your description is one that is happening more or less 'in front' of you ..

                        so we get into an interesting set of slopes on this pretty fast ..so let me take it out of the relative merits/benefits of elements or combinations of technique and throw this out there..

                        so much of this is relative to a few things in the golf swing ..and this is overly simplified to keep this readable ..

                        it's relative to where in your core you're swinging around .. Shawn's WIG swing is very much near the base of the spine..you can see it in his sequence..

                        if you have a lateral shift ..and I think you do ..and depending on how you're seeing your relationship with the target line ..you're likely working a bit higher on your spine..probably right around your belly button or navel ..and below your ribs..

                        in order for the club to sync to your core and work to the bottom and keep it predictable and on balance...you shift a bit laterally ..effectively working a bit 'down the line' to then put the bottom of the swing arc in front of the ball..

                        there are a lot of golf swings that work just that way ..and depending on one's stance, the lie of the ball and flexibility/stiffness on any given day.. you might see a bit more or less of it ..even in true 'lower core' swings..

                        if it keeps you in the swing ..and on balance and with quality contact..embrace it..

                        where this gets tricky is in self-evaluation where you look at characteristics of someone else's swing and assuming that your swing is somehow flawed or lacking or ineffective without a 'left heel lift' or 'wrist roll' or 'head turn' or some other element..

                        those things simply may or may not fit you at all..

                        I'll leave it at that for now..

                        cheers

                        k_f
                        from the hidden Ravine below 13th at CN G&CC
                        tu nunquam hic

                        Secret Swing Tech c/o Pigaman @ Crackpot Labs

                        wisdomingolf.com/index.php?option=com_ku...&id=47972&Itemid=225

                        let energy instead of style define you.

                        Proud Member 'Quote Yourself Club'

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                        • #13
                          Hi Chadrice,

                          It is an attempt to explain and discuss the barriers to a correct swing.

                          The physical demonstration to this post is the throwing of the club. Why that drill works. What is ment by a swing to target. How is Rory swinging to target and so on and so on.

                          I attempted to talk around why that works and intent and barriers to its success and invite others feedback and discussion.

                          Why? Because im a very boring individual hahahahahaha

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Gmonkey View Post
                            Hi Chadrice,

                            It is an attempt to explain and discuss the barriers to a correct swing.

                            The physical demonstration to this post is the throwing of the club. Why that drill works. What is ment by a swing to target. How is Rory swinging to target and so on and so on.

                            I attempted to talk around why that works and intent and barriers to its success and invite others feedback and discussion.

                            Why? Because im a very boring individual hahahahahaha
                            Hi Guys

                            I'll try and toss this around one more time..

                            here's some stuff that I'm trying to get WIG Friends to drill into just a little..

                            1. does the 'throwing of the club' work the same for everybody? Does it in fact as a drill somehow guarantee unlocking Shawn's WIG swing ..or your version of it?

                            2. assuming that it's 'your' version and the club is being thrown in a way that is consistent and effective..is it then a WIG swing?

                            3. is Rory's swing then an exact model of WIG ..in terms of sequence and release? or simply share some comment elements ? maybe in a slightly different order or balance?

                            4. what does the 'throwing of the club' reveal ? I believe that it's prime role is to help a student identify what a body rotation and its timing will feel like if it's leading the arms and having the ACU sync to the turn and its release ..

                            so is every rotational swing then somehow the same?

                            or simply share the rotational timing?

                            one last thought..

                            we know that the arms are syncing to the body (which provides timing) do they all sync to the same place on the core?

                            if they do or don't ..

                            would that look and feel different..?

                            any idea of why that might be an important distinction ?


                            are all Rotational Swings WIG swings?

                            cheers

                            k_f
                            from the hidden Ravine below 13th at CN G&CC
                            tu nunquam hic

                            Secret Swing Tech c/o Pigaman @ Crackpot Labs

                            wisdomingolf.com/index.php?option=com_ku...&id=47972&Itemid=225

                            let energy instead of style define you.

                            Proud Member 'Quote Yourself Club'

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The throwing of the club is dramatic tangible feedback.

                              Im not sure if there are multiple ways to throw the club to target but what it does do is demonstrate that (if your club flings left) a tangible flaw in a persons swing.

                              Once you have identified this it is not a given that you will transfer this to the real golf shot. It is the start of the journey not the end.

                              With regards to a WIG swing im not sure. Surely the basic mechanics of what Shawn does are the same as what Rory does. Ok with personal nuances granted.

                              'is every rotational swing the same'. Well certainly not. But I believe that the margin of error (ie difference) between swings is vastly reduced. Logic suggests it has to be if you see the outcomes.

                              Rotary swing is not a bad term but just as long as noone considers it to be swinging around the body. The body is causing the rotation. And also the footwork does not cause the rotation. Footwork will be on auto pilot with correct intent.

                              Get a piece of paper a pen and a coin. Trace the outside of the coin. Now move the coin halfway across the circle and trace the circumference again overlapping the first circle. Now as long as your head doesnt go forward that is your golf swing. That is also an throw, baseball hit, long distance fishing cast etc ect.

                              I havent come up with anything better that can explain lateral hand path, bowed left wrist impact, correct angle of attack, downwards impact with technically an upward blow, divot after the ball, finish over the ball on front leg, delayed hit and so on and so on. Footwork is automatic, contact with ball is automatic, club is square to target longer, club contact is not OTT and hands will be in front of the ball at impact (no flip). No temptation to sway or roll wrists ect.

                              What many people are doing is thinking of golf swing as one circle only with ball as target. Logical outcome to that has to be an OTT flip.

                              Maybe the reason for this is we have two legs. We dont have one point of rotation as in the Iron Byron machine.

                              Now you can try and con yourself into thinking one circle will do. How? Well stand up through the hit or perhaps a big sway. You can see how both would work. But both are flawed compensations.

                              Rory and Shawn do neither.

                              Food for thought? or my personal insanity ? hahahaha








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