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  • Shoulder turn

    Back into the game after a long break. Had a practice session today. Just trying to get the feel back. Went through the irons and wood but I was very inconsistent. I couldn't figure out what was wrong. At first, I paid attention to my grip and wrists hinge. I then felt my shoulder being tense so I worked on trying to be relaxed. Focused on target and so on. All without good result. At the end of my session, I decided to hit my remaining balls in fun mode. And suddenly, I hit a nice ball. I then realised I was not turning my shoulder enough in the backswing. That was it! By turning the shoulders I could feel the ACU and had nice wrists hinge. Whip to the target was then easy. A classic WIG video on the subject.


  • #2
    Try this on for size.

    https://youtu.be/IXyyIaAWO_o?t=11

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi Ferko,

      Welcome. Back.

      I had a similar problem as yours. I was able to solve mind.

      Just curious, what did you do differently in your swing to solve your shoulder turn problem?

      Thanjs,

      Gary

      Comment


      • #4
        Guys - careful with the term "shoulder turn." Remember the shoulders really only have 10-15 degrees range of motion. The turn table in your swing is really the hips. This will help keep any strain off of your back. Remember that our goal in the backswing is remove any obstacles out of the way of the arm swing. The obstacle would be the rib cage getting in the way of the upper arm. So the whole rib cage needs to turn! Well the rib cage sits on top of the pelvis via the spine. The pelvis is part of the ball socket system in the hips, which have amazing range of motion compared to all of the other areas in the upper body (other than the other ball socket system in the upper arm/shoulder).

        Work on the perpetual motion drill, just making sure that your upper arm doesn't crash into the rib cage in either direction. You should now have access to remain nice in wide back and through. Hope this helps.

        Comment


        • #5
          I agree "shoulder turn" could cause confusion but is it not the usual term to describe upper body or rib cage turn? But I guess it's good to clarify.

          Perpetual motion drill is certainly good to practice but I feel this doesn't help to start the swing. I know Shawn talks about feeling already in motion at address and has great videos about it (although he doesn't seem to talk about this anymore if I'm not mistaken. Maybe that's because he went from a toss to a place?).

          What I am experimenting with these days is to start the turn with my upper body and bring my back toward the target (this is what I was not doing well during my practice session). So, my upper body is moving my arms and I let my hips turn without any restriction. Note that this is my way of doing it and there are definitively other ways. I'll keep experimenting as I am just starting golf again after a long break.

          Comment


          • #6
            I suspect it all depends whether the individual prefers what is called an 'active pivot' vs 'reactive pivot'. An active pivot is where the kinetic sequence starts from the bottom up and you will actually feel as if the arms are being swung around passively (that would probably equate to a more gusto type TOSS of the arms/club in the backswing). A reactive pivot 'feels' (notice I said feel) as if the kinetic sequence starts from the top down with the upper torso turning first but still tossing the arms/club less energetically (is this what a 'PLACE' in the backswing could be? I don't know for certain) while the lower half of your body reacts to get out of the way. In truth , the kinetic sequence still starts from the bottom up even for a reactive pivot although your senses probably think its from the top down (if it didn't then you would crash).

            I actually prefer a reactive pivot feel but I know the kinetic sequence is from the bottom up because I make a real effort to still feel as if I am falling 'up' in the backswing and then throwing to the target in the forward swing without crashing my upper arms into my upper ribcage. When I try and use an active pivot, my rhythm gets out of whack

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            • #7
              ‘Shoulder turn’ is really important and often the cause in case my performance is bad, together with ball focus of course.
              Another problem related to shoulder or better body turn is the path of the arms. If throwing horse shoes or bowling, everybody would do that with a slight arc, but basically that arc has a lot to do with the target line.
              In golf, many tend massively to bring the hands far around the body, the hand or arm path has nothing to do with the target line.
              That understanding is crucial, a lot of body out of the way should NOT impact the arm path, which is needed to have easy access to the target.
              Check out the Waldron arm - body illusion.

              Since I switched to go through the impact left handed for better lag, a very good analogy for the backswing is throwing a frisbee left handed.
              Full turn, wide arms and good path is easy to get then.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Alpineberlinette View Post
                ‘Shoulder turn’ is really important and often the cause in case my performance is bad, together with ball focus of course.
                Another problem related to shoulder or better body turn is the path of the arms. If throwing horse shoes or bowling, everybody would do that with a slight arc, but basically that arc has a lot to do with the target line.
                In golf, many tend massively to bring the hands far around the body, the hand or arm path has nothing to do with the target line.
                That understanding is crucial, a lot of body out of the way should NOT impact the arm path, which is needed to have easy access to the target.
                Check out the Waldron arm - body illusion.

                Since I switched to go through the impact left handed for better lag, a very good analogy for the backswing is throwing a frisbee left handed.
                Full turn, wide arms and good path is easy to get then.
                Good point Alpineberlinette . Path of the arms is really important and I struggled with this too. I checked the Waldron arm - body illusion at https://youtu.be/MY4mmKu_gy4 . Very interesting (I think Gary mentioned it too a while ago). I agree with his analysis but for people with a vertical swing. Vertical swing means dissociation betwen the hands (going up and in front) and body movement. People with an horizontal swing tend to turn around their body. I followed a curriculum on "action type" applied to golf a few months ago. Action type was originally devised by volleyball coaches who couldn't understand why their students couldn't apply their instructions and teaching. They studied anatomy and the like and came up with different "coordination" profiles. I tried to document what I learned about horizontality / verticality in the blog below. I know this is not official WIG theory but I thought this was interesting and decided to publish it as a student of the Game. Food for thought as I see it.

                https://wisdomingolf.vbulletin.net/b...the-golf-swing

                I will definitively try the frisbee throw at the range this week-end and let you know how it works for me. Glad to be back on the forum.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hi Everyone,

                  Some of us believe that once the “Tall Turn Table” (Shoulders, Rib Cage and Pelvis) turns out of the way by moving on top of the hips, the Trail/Right Arm will fold, the wrists will hinge and the arms will continue to rise during the Takeaway and Backswing. We believe it is only an Up and down Motion of the arms. But this is only a part of what should take place with the arms during the Backswing.

                  The important missing part is ROTATION.

                  You should feel ROTATION of the arms at the shoulder sockets. You should feel how your Elbow needs to ROTATE/Move as it folds. Also you should feel how your Forearm needs to ROTATE as the wrists hinge.

                  See the video below. Clues every where in this video. Go buy a Baton. Twirl that sucker.

                  Rotation, Rotation, Rotation

                  Elbow, Elbow, Elbow

                  Thanks,

                  Gary
                   

                  Comment


                  • kid_fullerene
                    kid_fullerene commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Good Stuff G! the awareness in that exercise can open up more than one 'mental door' into the nature of where the energy is going and where it is trying to take the various joints in the arms in some kind of sequence. Where is the active and passive in Schrodinger's description occurring relative to the weight at the end of the baton - and what might contribute to making it so? These lessons don't come easily - as the 'paradigm' of what it's asking the student to try and perceive is so often 'outside' what the seeker has a framework to understand. But one has to start someplace! cheers, k_f

                • #10
                  Love this thread, I was always having trouble with my weight shift, I felt like my arms were already halfway down my body before I shifted my weight. I saw an old video where Shawn said weight shift while your back is to the target....I was not turning my body enough.....if I get my back to the target, I can fall down to weight shift, and than let the club fall (that is a whole new thread, I struggle with letting the club fall and not using my hands.lol ).

                  Comment


                  • #11
                    Julie, what you feel is the effortless once the anatomy is able to whip the snod out...

                    Comment


                    • Ken Robie
                      Ken Robie commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Julie, If you want to really feel the entire motion of the weight shift, practice making full swings with your thumbs off of the club shaft (just your fingers) this takes your ability to "push" with your thumbs in the down swing. You will feel like you are getting a full lag weight shift transition from the top of back swing through the release toward the target.

                  • #12
                    Originally posted by Alpineberlinette View Post
                    Julie, what you feel is the effortless once the anatomy is able to whip the snod out...
                    Thanks guys, I am going straight out to the shed to try the thumbs off swing.

                    Comment


                    • #13
                      Here are two pictures to illustrate the above discussion about the "Waldron arm - body illusion" and the verticality / horizontality in the swing. I took two extremes: Ricky Fowler and Bubba Watson. Ricky has an horizontal swing and Bubba has vertical swing. This is very visible when you look at the arms and shoulder plane in the backswing as shown below. Ricky's arm plane is below his shoulder plane and Bubba's arm plane is above his shoulder plane at the "top" of the backswing. If you look at their hands when their arms reach "parallel to the ground" in the backswing, you can see that Bubba's hands are up and in front of his chest while ricky's hands are behind the body. Basically, Ricky's arms are going more around his body while Bubba's arms are going up and staying in front.

                      Click image for larger version

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                      Click image for larger version

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                      • #14
                        Hi Everyone,

                        Everyone is different. Try and find out what type of player you are. The video below is an example of the different types of shoulder turns.
                         

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                        • #15
                          Originally posted by Gary View Post
                          Hi Everyone,

                          Everyone is different. Try and find out what type of player you are. The video below is an example of the different types of shoulder turns.
                          That's where WIG is good with its external focus. Don't try to get body parts in such or such position but focus on result (ball to target) or process (cut dandelion stem). Also, WIG has good drills to cover different styles. I'm thinking one leg drill or feet together drill. Having said that, being conscious of our own style is important to understand if such or such advice is relevant or not.
                          Last edited by Ferko; 1 week ago.

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