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  • #46
    Originally posted by Ferko View Post

    You're completely right. Looking at the videos I posted, I can see I don't do that when doing PMD. It seems that my wrists hinge earlier in the backswing and downswing.
    You're right . . . your PMD looks much different from your actual swing.

    Here are a few more videos for you Ferko that I think will help.

    First, in this DTL view that you just posted (e.g., pause at the 0:01 and the 0:23 marks in the video below) you can see the "arms inside" and well behind you. From there you have to re-route out and around in the downswing as opposed to being in a "position" where the weight and momentum of ACU can simply fall down the swing plane and past you toward the target.



    So for keeping the arms in front of you, Shawn has a great analogy and tip in this old video that I think will help you . . .



    And here are some more videos on width . . .



    This one is a good one for width, but with the caution of not taking things to the extreme in an effort to gain width . . .



    Finally, here's one on overswing and fast backswing . . .



    There are more I could post, but I don't want to get too carried away here. I hope these help!

    Comment


    • #47
      Ferko,

      A little "somethin'-somethin'" from my PRE-WIG days?

      Think of "slinging" the CLUB-HEAD rather than HITTING the ball.....

      (hope it uploads...)

      Merry Christmas everyone!

      dude abides

      Attached Files
      "OLD" Forum Participation

      Entry Date: 18-JAN-2011
      Posts: 1813
      Thank You: 1048

      "Be water, my friends"

      Comment


      • #48
        The difference between PMD and swing/ball/target puzzled me. Had a quick session at the range (10 minutes from home!). What I noticed is that I maintained the "platform" better with PMD. I thought about what I had experienced this morning when practicing the drill with the boards. I paid attention to the "platform" and the suction cups. I didn't put my butt in the next county behind me as much as this morning but maintained the suction cups throughout the swing. It forced me to be closer to the ball and to have my hands closer to my body (very much like PMD). Not sure if it's good or not but it felt a lot easier although I don't see that much difference in terms of overswing.

        Comment


        • #49
          Hi Ferko,

          Here are are a couple of videos to consider.

          CONNECTION IN THE SWING: 12/19/2014

          http://youtu.be/LhBvO0CTSxw

          There are only two ball socket systems, the hips and the shoulder sockets. The elbow IS NOT a ball socket system and it IS NOT a Fulcrum. The ball on the string = the ball represents the club head, the lower part of the string represents the club shaft, the upper part of the string represents the arms, and the hands represent the shoulder sockets. The up and down movement of the hands adds velocity to the ball on the string with the use of gravity and inertia. Therefore, the up and down movement and rotation of the arms at the shoulder sockets uses gravity and inertia to add velocity and power to your golf swing. You track the movement of the club head at your shoulder sockets.

          Thus second video might make sense now.
          How to get the position of the Right Arm
          FYA Golf
          April 20, 2016

          https://youtu.be/FDMHhT0Zry8

          Don’t allow your elbow to be a lever. It is not a ball socket system.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Ferko View Post
            The difference between PMD and swing/ball/target puzzled me.
            Ferko,

            Thanks for sharing your progress!

            As the Dude aptly pointed out, I think your earlier statement is the key "difference" between your PMD and your actual swing. Specifically you wrote, "I see on the video that I revert to my old swing as soon as the ball (the target?) is in play."

            IMHO the width that you have in your PMD looks great and is much more what you want. But how do we get you there when the ball is in play? Why don't you try this drill where Shawn stops at the top of his backswing with his arms "wide and in front" of him, and then he puts the parking brake on. From there you will know that you're in the "correct position" when you can simply allow your ACU to fall down the swing plane in front of you; through the ball; and past you toward the target. Here's the video where Shawn demonstrates this . . .



            Notice for example at the 1:00 mark of Shawn's video where his hands/arms are, they are "wide and in front" of him. The top of your backswing in your PMD looks similar! Perhaps Ferko if you slow things down and put the parking brake on you will be able to get/develop a better feel, awareness, and trust for where you need to be at the top of your backswing in your actual swing such that the ball will simply be in the way of you swinging to the target.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Gary View Post
              Don’t allow your elbow to be a lever. It is not a ball socket system.
              Thanks for the video. Didn't know the one from Shawn. As for the lever, I agree that the elbow as a lever is too complicated. Having said that, the bent-left-elbow method of playing was actually used by Harry Vardon. See this post https://wisdomingolf.vbulletin.net/f...-book#post6623. I'm not advocating it though. Enough trouble already

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              • Ken Robie
                Ken Robie commented
                Editing a comment
                Ferko, I bet that worked for Vardon because his "jacket" was tailor made for him. ;>)

            • #52
              Originally posted by Ferko View Post
              Having said that, the bent-left-elbow method of playing was actually used by Harry Vardon.

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              Are you sure that is Harry Vardon? I'm pretty sure this is a picture of our very own Kid.

              See Kid's avatar . . . if I could figure out how to post it here I would, but I seem to have forgotten how to post an image.

              Comment


              • Schrodinger
                Schrodinger commented
                Editing a comment
                There are some instructors that advocate a bent left arm . Bob Toski, Mike Malaska and the controversial Jack Kuykendall .

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi4ojwHIEiY

                Also , in that famous book by Theodore Jorgensen "The Physics of Golf":
                -----------------------------------------------------------
                Quote from Page 93:
                I used a seven iron, which with a straight left arm I usually hit about 135 yards. One variation of the Vardon swing (bent left arm) sent the ball 170 yards.
                I had no idea what I had done in that swing.
                -----------------------------------------------

                The bent left arm can be used as a lever which can generate extra speed but the timing required to consistently strike the ball is made more difficult because you now have to deal with a changing swing radius (left arm length) in the forward swing. Vardon obviously mastered it after playing countless hours over so many years.

            • #53
              I think you are right Cally







              Comment


              • COSTA103
                COSTA103 commented
                Editing a comment
                Ummmmmm.......
                I notice that the distinguished gentleman from western New York is suspiciously quiet on this identification?
                Has anyone checked the secret ravine alongside #13?

                C'mon kid......confirm or deny?

              • Cally
                Cally commented
                Editing a comment
                Dude, I checked the secret ravine alongside #13 . . . there's a light on, but no answer at the door. I also checked the Secret Lab and he isn't there either. My guess is he's out doing some last-minute Christmas shopping.

              • kid_fullerene
                kid_fullerene commented
                Editing a comment
                that is indeed the Avatar .. I aspire to being the self-made Gentleman and Golf Stylist that Mr. Vardon will always be -- and he's one of my inspirations in the Great Game. I'll have to put some footage of HV up ..it's a remarkable swing..and I think that the insight about the clothing playing a role in the swing and its levers is quite right. There is also the consideration of playing with Hickory ..which changes a whole bunch of things as well. As for my 'silence' ...guilty as charged - been putting the Holidays on tap for those near and dear. While I'm at it..and I"ll be back probably in the am - I am delighted to wish you all a very Merry Christmas, the Happiest of Holidays and New Year!

                cheers for now

                k_f

            • #54
              Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all you WIGGERS!☆○☆○☆○☆

              Comment


              • #55
                Vardon 1923




                he's older in this footage - note the more contemporary clothing..probably the late '20's or early 30's ..


                the earliest I could find ..dates from 1904 .. the bent elbow seems to allow a bit more travel ..relative to how far back he was playing the ball in his stance..just a guess that the whip of the Hickory shaft also plays a role in that..




                on the Hickory Shaft .. from Peter Kostis relating it to Bobby Jones' Swing..a retro 'Swing Vision'


                and on the nature of the clothes making the man and the golf swing.. c/o 'Secret in the Dirt' and Steve Elkington pretty sure this is the right piece..I'll grind through it and see..this whole 'series' and conversation is a good one .. this swing is its own animal and is not quite WIG ..so approach with interest but with the appropriate amount of caution re: mapping this into WIG..



                and something that is so terrific about HV's legendary powers of focus and concentration as captured in 'Greatest Game' .. so while his 'elbow' might not be for you, this concentration thing is something that might do some good things for your game.



                cheers,

                k_f
                from the hidden Ravine below 13th at CN G&CC
                tu nunquam hic

                Secret Swing Tech c/o Pigaman @ Crackpot Labs

                wisdomingolf.com/index.php?option=com_ku...&id=47972&Itemid=225

                let energy instead of style define you.

                Proud Member 'Quote Yourself Club'

                Comment


                • Cally
                  Cally commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Thanks for the videos Kid, I just started looking at them. At first glance of the still images of Vardon I thought he wore boots and I wondered how he played in those; I see now he was wearing long socks and not boots.

                • Ferko
                  Ferko commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Reminds me of the hands first move with hickory shaft that Shawn demonstrates in one of his video. Vardon seems so relaxed in his backswing. Food for thoughts.

              • #56
                Quick session at the range. Tried goldilock to solve my overswing issue. Swing in front, back, club inside or outside at the top, etc. No good result. I thought I had an issue with the wrists hinge. Feel it doing PMD but don't feel it in my golf swing. Tried the Vardon swing i.e. hands first swing. But this was wobbly wobbly.

                Talked to a guy (pretty good swing) and I explained my issue. Showed him PMD which he liked very much. He said one of the reasons people overswing is that they turn their upper torso too much. Definitively my case. Really need to keep the pressure cooker in place.

                Back to the wrists hinge I thought I would stop turning if my wrists were fully hinged earlier. I then thought about my grip and the knife the grip video. Move my right hand more on top and the result was quite good. Easier to come back but still an overswing. I also noticed that my backswing was different. More rotational. Revisiting my grip right now.

                Comment


                • #57
                  Hi Everyone! Just wanted to pop in and say hello and to wish everyone an amazing Christmas and a Happy New Year; I am going to try and chime in more often in the coming months as we will be MAKING A VERY BIG (yes in deed) BIG ANNOUNCEMENT for Wisdom in Golf that will propel us deeper into the heart of the game of golf to help save more lost souls!
                  Hint: This deal is finally done and the result of 4 months work and will help bring golf full circle back to it’s origins in North America; OUR NEW WISDOM IN GOLF WEBSITE IS SCHEDULED TO GO LIVE ON JANUARY 15TH and it is at that time that we will make the announcement;

                  I cannot tell you how much I have appreciated all of your support and participation in this forum; THANK YOU TO ALL!!
                  PLEASE continue as we will make this better in the coming months and years;

                  I am so excited you guys; so excited for all of us!
                  Here is a photo from the entrance to the new Home Of Wisdom in Golf;
                  hint #2: we are now part of the Royal Family of Golf!

                  Quoting from a famous Wig’er: I love you guys and I love this place!
                  “With Wisdom in Golf, success is Inevitable”

                  Your Chairman,

                  Comment


                  • #58
                    Merry Christmas, Mr. Chairman and all my fellow-WIG'rs....

                    Look forward to what you have up your sleeve for 2018 and beyond.
                    I'll be here for sure!

                    Love this place and you guys
                    (I believe is the "correct quote"??

                    dude abides
                    "OLD" Forum Participation

                    Entry Date: 18-JAN-2011
                    Posts: 1813
                    Thank You: 1048

                    "Be water, my friends"

                    Comment


                    • #59
                      Merry Christmas to all fellow WIG'ers and members of
                      CN G&CC!

                      Comment


                      • #60
                        One last very quick session at the range to try one last thing someone mentioned (right arm extension). Didn't get any result. The wrists hinge really bothered me. I started to swing the club with my right hand feeling the hinge / snap in both directions. Did the same with my left hand. Put both hands on the club and did the same. Couldn't feel the hinge. I don't know how it came to me but if it was ok with one hand, let's put both hands on the club and swing keeping one hand passive. I did exactly that. Keeping the right hand passive (doing absolutely nothing!) and swinging. BINGO. Could feel the wrists hinge. Effortless swing. I couldn't believe it. Videoed myself and unfortunately the overswing is still there. But happy with the effortless swing.

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