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  • #61
    Ferko, when you are at the house practice just what you did with your passive hands, only this time just toss the ACU back and let it go to your finish position at the top of your back swing and just stay there. Now thinking of nothing but what your hands feel, let your hands relax and support the club on just your right thumb and index finger, you should feel the support coming from the bottom of the handle and not the side. As you focus on where the relaxed support comes from notice what your right wrist is doing, is it straining to hinge like your left wrist or does it feel like it is more of a dinner tray supporting role? They are different in how they function. You want the relaxed dinner tray feel to keep your arms wrist and a relaxed lag feeling at the top.
    Last edited by Ken Robie; 12-24-2017, 11:11 AM.

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    • Gary
      Gary commented
      Editing a comment
      In the backswing, the left wrist will hinge and the right wrist will hinge and bend. In the follow through, the left wrist hinges and bends and the right wrist only hinges. (happyroman)

  • #62
    What a wonderful Christmas gift, Gary!

    ....a resurrection of the wisdom of "happyroman"!

    I wonder what became of happy;
    I hope he's healthy and doing well.
    We certainly do miss him and can use his wisdom...

    I, for one will be thinking of him this holiday, thanks to you, Gary.

    Well done.

    dude abides
    "OLD" Forum Participation

    Entry Date: 18-JAN-2011
    Posts: 1813
    Thank You: 1048

    "Be water, my friends"

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    • #63
      Originally posted by COSTA103 View Post
      What a wonderful Christmas gift, Gary!

      ....a resurrection of the wisdom of "happyroman"!

      I wonder what became of happy;
      I hope he's healthy and doing well.
      We certainly do miss him and can use his wisdom...

      I, for one will be thinking of him this holiday, thanks to you, Gary.

      Well done.

      dude abides
      Hi Dude,

      I'm with you on your sentiments for Happyroman!

      I just checked his YouTube channel to see if there has been any recent activity on there. And in fact, he just updated his channel 5 days ago!

      While he hasn't been on the WIG forum in quite some time, perhaps posting his Christmas song collection here that he has compiled will at least make him feel a little closer to us . . .

      Last edited by Cally; 12-24-2017, 01:02 PM.

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    • #64
      Happy sent me an email last week telling me he is enjoying the videos on clubfitting with our new friends at TXG; we will see him again soon I hope!
      Shawn

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      • #65
        Waiting for the extended family to arrive so took some time in the garden. First of all I wanted to know if my overswing issue was linked to my focus i.e. ball, target, etc. Here is the comparison at the top of the backswing. I concluded that focusing on the ball, the target or nothing didn't change a lot in terms of overswing.

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        I then tried a drill with the hands reversed i.e. left hand below right hand (right-handed player). Result below. Interestingly, I found that I was too much on the front of the feet and instinctively move into the "suction cups" position. No visible improvements.

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        I then performed the drill with hands up in front and then turn. Did it a few times. Swung. Tried the drill again. and so on.

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        As I progressed I corrected my position (really need to keep these suction cups in place). Also felt the club closer to me (more like PMD). And finally I brushed the grass in front of me! Here is the swing. Need to polish all of that but definitevely experienced new things these last few days. Thanks to you all. Such a great community.



        Merry Christmas to all of you!

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        • #66
          Ferko, can I give you some constructive advice????? If not disregard. ;>) Take a still from the front of your at the ball address position, now look at your set up position and then look at any of Shawn's set ups, what is the #1 thing you see that is different between the two? I will let you pick out the difference and then we can go from there. Merry Christmas

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          • #67
            Originally posted by Ken Robie View Post
            Ferko, can I give you some constructive advice????? If not disregard. ;>) Take a still from the front of your at the ball address position, now look at your set up position and then look at any of Shawn's set ups, what is the #1 thing you see that is different between the two? I will let you pick out the difference and then we can go from there. Merry Christmas
            I take my chance without looking at Shawn's setup! Hope my memory serves me well. Looking from the front, what comes to my mind is the tilt. Thinking about Shawn's setup, I can think about another difference from down the line: the angles.

            The way I see it is that I'm moving from an erect-and-weight-on-front-of-the-feet swing to a suction-cup swing that gives me a nice platform to support the swing of the ACU. The challenge for me is to keep the platform in place as my current tendency is to move my weight on the front of the feet without realising it (at address and during the swing). The change makes my hands closer to my body and I feel the ball is closer too. I need to tune all these things. PMD and various drills help.

            Thinking about the butt in the next county behind you, I must say I find it a bit too much. I played with the feel today and for me it's more like a lowering down. I haven't had a chance to practice this and see the result so this is speculation at this stage. I thought of Ben Hogan description of this in his Five Lessons.

            Assuming the proper posture as he addresses the ball is a purposeful movement in which the player lowers his body from its normal erect position into a sturdier and more balanced position for executing the golf swing. Do not use your hips as you bend your knees.

            You should bend your knees from the thighs down. As you knees bend, the upper part of the trunk remains normally erect, just as it does when you sit down in a chair. In golf, the sit-down motion is more like lowering yourself onto a spectator-sports-stick, think of the seat of the stick as being about two inches or so below your buttocks.
            I don't know about the spectator-sports-stick but lowering your body by bending your knees talks to me. I'll try at the range and see how it works.

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            • #68
              Went to the range thid morning. Pretty confident I had my swing nailed. Well, not really! Did the drill lifting the club in front of me, turning into the backswing and then swinging but couldn't get the same feel when swinging from my address position. Tried many things like keeping the hands passive, focusing on target, cutting tree, swinging ACU, etc. I videoed myself and could see I was always overswinging.

              After hitting a fair number of balls I decided I had enough of my irons and decided to hit some 3 wood to enjoy myself. I usually hit it well. I asked myself why I could hit my 3W so well and not my irons. Didn't feel any difference in terms of focus. So I decided to compare what happened in the swing.

              I started with the weight shift. With my 3W I could feel the weight shifting to the back foot and the chest getting out of the way in the backswing. I could feel the weight shifting to the front foot and the arms going through without hitting the chest. Nice rhythm. Nice powerful fade. No so with my irons.

              I tried to hit my 5i like my 3W. Feeling the difference in weight shift, hands and arms. It was different but I couldn't find why. I then paid attention to my chest and I noticed that with my 3W I kept the chest "erected" but not with my 5i. I suddenly realised I let my left knee collapsed forward in the backswing with my irons and the left hip followed. I then hit my 5i making sure I kept my chest "erected". That was really different. Felt like I could go through and got some extra distance. Still overswinging though and releasing before the ball.

              In the evening I kept comparing my 3W and 7i swings with no club in hands. What I noticed is the difference with the right arm. With my 3W, the right arm folds pretty quickly and its upper part stayed connected with my chest. With the 7i, the right arm was in extension and its upper part was not connected with the chest. I did some imaginary PMD and I had the same connection as the 3W. I realised this could explain why I feel the wrist hinge in the backswing doing PMD and could easily go to the target with my 3W. Weather permit, I will try that at the range on Sunday.

              I read somewhere that golf is an awareness game. Couldn't agree more. Just wondering if one could one day say that he's fully aware!? I'll know for sure next time I play or practice -

              Comment


              • Schrodinger
                Schrodinger commented
                Editing a comment
                Hi Ferko - Your probably aware of this yourself but if you look at snapshots at about 0:06 , your right wrist has already flipped through impact , your left wrist has bent through impact and your left elbow is 'chicken winging' . Your right arm is also chicken winging almost immediately post impact. Also notice how your head is still 'ball bound' and your pivot has stalled a bit at impact. All of this, in my humble opinion, is caused by hitting at the ball, especially using your right arm (and straightening that right wrist as if to slap the ball). Maybe it would be a good idea to get a heavy kettle bell and do some throws just using your left arm (then right arm only , then both arms) to get the proper feel of swinging through that release stage through impact to target.

              • Ferko
                Ferko commented
                Editing a comment
                Agree 100% with the chicken wing. My feeling at this stage is that this is due to early release caused by the overswing. I may be wrong but I'd like to fix this and see if it does any good.

                You're also right regarding hitting the ball with the right arm. I experienced it and talk about it earlier in the discussion. Definitively something to watch in my case. I'll give a try to the kettle bell and throw with the left/right/both arm.

            • #69
              Here is a good video by Shawn that might explain it a bit better:

              Last edited by Schrodinger; 12-30-2017, 10:05 PM.

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              • #70
                Hi Ferko

                Happy New Year ..and a big 'Thank You' for your many contributions in 2017 (and years prior) and those I have no doubt you will make in 2018.

                I saw your latest ..and wanded into your prior postings including the stills and video .. and wanted to offer a couple reactions and see if it might help your process as you continue your journey.

                This will be pretty non-technical and it's just some impressions.. here goes:

                1. your 'overswing' and its characteristic fingerprint 'bent elbow' is related to what is probably overturn/over rotation of your body during the swing.

                2. your successful rhythm and timing during your swing is based on a sort of awareness template from the over turn .. in short, you've grooved an overly long backswing ..

                3. adding to that template other techniques or tools to put the 'juice' into the swing at best are temporary ..and at worst are going to work against you.

                what it looks like - and it would be easier if I was standing there on the range with you .. is that you're walking a fine line between getting enough backswing length to make your swing work and getting stuck ..

                I also suspect that there is probably not a word that I've written that you don't already know..

                if I had to take a guess - the overturn might be related to you reinterpolating some WIG concepts like ..wait or feel the weight and trying to meld that into your existing over-swing.
                (clearly I'm just throwing a dart at this..)

                as long as I've got a handful of darts..I'll throw a couple more ..and offer this one to start:

                1. for 2018 - explore the concept and nature of what/where the notion of Width is in your swing .. my premise is that you're trying to build width through rotation ..the tool needs to be released from the turn in a way to let it find its way to the target (sorry ..kind of cliche')

                2. here's a potential path - look at the WIG hockey concepts.. I think it's a good place to start.. here's why.. you'll get a sense of the actual physical arc of the club outward and around

                easiest way to immediately see it (and bank this awareness for later) is to use the WIG slapshot concepts .. for me to get there ..I used my right (or trail hand) low on the steel below the grip and just hit short shots to an identified/defined target..



                Shawn shows the arc in this video ..so if you can, relate the hockey technique to the head of the club working on an arc as he demonstrates here..




                Shawn makes the distinction that the club tracks ITS OWN ARC... so there's a point where YOUR rotation doesn't necessarily matter anymore.. it's up to the club ..and either you have released it to do it ..or you're finding a way to put a simulation of power in place to try and create something close enough to advance the ball ..

                so for 2018 - you have a chance to redefine what gravity's job is, what the club and club head's job is ..and what your job is relative to all of that ..

                my belief is that you have more than enough awareness and coordination to make this jump - as what you're doing now requires, actually demands greater eye-hand coordination than what you actually need to do to swing the golf club..

                from the Hockey Drill(s)..I would have you work on transition .. downswing into full finish kind of stuff.. try to get you a sense of where the weight is and where the snap is .. if you can get some of that ..the 'stuck' stuff starts to take care of itself.

                I'll leave it there for now..

                hope it makes some sort of sense .. it's a place to look at least ..

                cheers for now

                k_f
                from the hidden Ravine below 13th at CN G&CC
                tu nunquam hic

                Secret Swing Tech c/o Pigaman @ Crackpot Labs

                wisdomingolf.com/index.php?option=com_ku...&id=47972&Itemid=225

                let energy instead of style define you.

                Proud Member 'Quote Yourself Club'

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                • #71
                  Originally posted by kid_fullerene View Post
                  1. your 'overswing' and its characteristic fingerprint 'bent elbow' is related to what is probably overturn/over rotation of your body during the swing.
                  Agree 100% on your analysis and thanks for taking the time to provide your feedback. I'll look at the video and digest what you said.

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                  • #72
                    Back from the range where I kept comparing PMD and my iron swing. Comparing the right shoulder gave nothing. I moved to the axis of the swing which feels very centered with PMD. So decided to keep my axis centered during the whole swing. That was not such a difference in the backswing but was way different going through the target.

                    It was like I had a nice platform in place, keeping the weight inside the feet and the arms just moved around having a life of their own. Felt much like slashing a melon and similar to the feel I have around the impact area with the PMD. The balls went straight to the target (I don't play fade/draw with irons). I think I really misunderstood one of Shawn's video about overswing. In it, Shawn explains that his arms are like wet towels and he swings these wet towels to the target. For me, it meant engaging the upper body into such an action. With a platform in place, it felt like I was doing nothing with the arms. They just went back and forth around the axis.

                    The swing doesn't look much different from the previous one but it feels different. Still overswinging and chicken winging. I will revisit what has been said before in the discussion in light of this new platform. Also, need to try the tilt at address.

                    Comment


                    • kid_fullerene
                      kid_fullerene commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Ferko -
                      that swing looks a lot better - ultimately, your swing will always be just that..you see how you see, you're balanced in a way that fits your eyes and anatomy, and your muscles will work the way they always have - the 'trick' is to be open to working with what you have ..and see how any technique will fit what you bring to it. Don't worry about the appearance of the thing being the 'right thing' .. let the ball flight(s) and balanced finish give you some guidance. Cheers! k_f

                    • Schrodinger
                      Schrodinger commented
                      Editing a comment
                      I agree with kid that your swing looks a lot better and effortless. You don't seem to be overswinging very much now and your weight pressure (at the top of your backswing) seems to be more on the instep of your right foot rather than the outer border (as in previous swings). But obviously , not a good idea to consciously think about weight pressure on inside of right foot etc during the swing (or concentrating on any internal body parts) because that will short circuit your 'kinetic sequence' (and naturalness).

                      PS. Your chin should be up enough to allow everything above your turntable (especially your right shoulder) free unimpeded access to target . Allow your eyes to follow the clubface through to target and allow your head to swivel freely as your right shoulder (ie, part of everything above the 'turntable') moves under your chin.

                      I have a very similar problem where I keep my chin too close to my chest because my posture tends to be too upright. My shoulder crashes into my chin and my pivot stalls.
                      Last edited by Schrodinger; 12-31-2017, 10:00 AM.

                  • #73
                    Originally posted by Ferko View Post
                    Back from the range where I kept comparing PMD and my iron swing. Comparing the right shoulder gave nothing. I moved to the axis of the swing which feels very centered with PMD. So decided to keep my axis centered during the whole swing. That was not such a difference in the backswing but was way different going through the target.

                    It was like I had a nice platform in place, keeping the weight inside the feet and the arms just moved around having a life of their own. Felt much like slashing a melon and similar to the feel I have around the impact area with the PMD. The balls went straight to the target (I don't play fade/draw with irons). I think I really misunderstood one of Shawn's video about overswing. In it, Shawn explains that his arms are like wet towels and he swings these wet towels to the target. For me, it meant engaging the upper body into such an action. With a platform in place, it felt like I was doing nothing with the arms. They just went back and forth around the axis.

                    The swing doesn't look much different from the previous one but it feels different. Still overswinging and chicken winging. I will revisit what has been said before in the discussion in light of this new platform. Also, need to try the tilt at address.

                    Hi Ferko,

                    As someone who has had "overswing" issues myself, I applaud your efforts in working through these things. I hesitated earlier to post too many videos on the "overswing" issue, but now that you've had a chance to digest those I thought I would add a few more that I believe will help you.

                    First, just a quick rewind, here's Shawn's earliest video on preventing an "overswing" . . .



                    And here's a much more recent video where Shawn did a student analysis on "overswing" which includes other video suggestions (e.g., lower body in the backswing), and also at the end another student shares how he stopped an "overswing" by feeling his "backswing peter out" which I think is likely what you feel during your PMD where you don't have the "overswing" . . .



                    Finally, I think this is another good one to combine with the others . . .



                    Keep at it my friend!

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                    • Schrodinger
                      Schrodinger commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Good videos Cally. I haven't seen all of these yet , but could an overswing happen by using the upper torso more predominantly (ie from the thoracic spine section only)? Because one hasn't rotated the hips enough to allow a greater degree of freedom to create enough momentum for your intended task, one is forced to rotate the upper body (thoracic section) and create that dreaded X factor in the backswing? Just wondering whether a simple setup error like not flaring one's feet enough could be a root cause for overswinging in a non 'body friendly' way? Its sort of counterintuitive because one would think flaring say the right foot (for a rightie) would assist an overswing but maybe that's not the case. By flaring the right foot will give a greater degree of freedom in using your butt as a counterweight to create the required momentum (ie. trebuchet analogy - but without the dreaded X -factor strain) without overswinging.

                    • Cally
                      Cally commented
                      Editing a comment
                      I think you're right on Schrodinger! There can be a number of reasons for an overswing. And even though it may seem counterintuitive to flare the feet as you suggested, I agree with your reasoning.

                    • Ferko
                      Ferko commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Schrodinger, I tried flaring (right foot) but it didn't help.

                  • #74
                    Ferko, have you tried the left hand swing, the respective video from Shawn is only a few weeks old?
                    On top of the nuggets in this video I recommend to slash the sword left handed and observe, when the max speed happens.
                    It may be, that you will find a difference between slash and your golf swing.
                    Most golfers and 110 % of the overswingers, seem to have max speed before the ball, while Shawn seems do do everything in the 50 cm between ball and intermediate target, and barely nothing before.
                    My style is also, to max speed too early. If so, I say to me, wait much longer, than my instinct would do, and if doing so, super golf shots happen.

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                    • #75
                      Hi Ferko,
                      I agree with Schrodinger....

                      What I see is a POSTURE that is TOO upright?
                      Perhaps a "more athletic stance"; one that is balanced and athletically prepared to move?

                      Looks like your set-up is IN the way?
                      Perhaps "butt MORE into "next county"?

                      Good progress being made, however.
                      Good for you!

                      Stay after it, my friend

                      dude abides
                      "OLD" Forum Participation

                      Entry Date: 18-JAN-2011
                      Posts: 1813
                      Thank You: 1048

                      "Be water, my friends"

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