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  • #76
    I agree that posture is important to your golf swing. Here is a video that might help.

    How To Put Real Power Into Your Swing

    Essential Golf

    September 22, 2017

    Body Linkage at setup. Pay close attention to the hip hinge. If you turn in your Backswing and extend your leg to quickly you will cancel the hip hinge and your lower body rotation. Sufficient lower body rotation will allow your arms to extend outward.


    • #77
      Kept working on PMD / swing comparison. After exploring the arms, wrists and chest, decided to pay attention to the lower body. It was good timing as in one of the video recommended above (Wisdom Over-Swing Analysis - Niall Shawn talks about the lower body and the Hogan Power Move. All is well described in Gary 's blog and in one of the video.

      Originally posted by Shawn Clement
      Legs have to extend to allow the hips to rotate undernearth the pelvis and rib cage. If you try to keep your legs bent in the backswing, you're restricting the legs. If you restrict the legs, you restrict the hips . If you restrict the hips, the pelvis and rib cage cannot turn out of the way of your swinging arms.
      I decided to pay attention to my right leg and knee. Could feel the right leg extending in the backswing with PMD or baton swinging. Got the baton out for the occasion ;-)

      In my swing I found that the right knee stayed bent with my weight on top of it. I think at a time I tried to gain extension in the backswing and the consequence is that I transfer my weight on top of the right leg.

      And so I paid attention to my whole body move. With the baton or PMD I could feel I was going up and down and stayed centered (same when slashing a melon). As the Chairman says in the above video:

      Originally posted by Shawn Clement
      It's an UP-DOWN-UP motion.
      So, I decided to just go up and down and see what happens. Here is the result. Still a bit of an overswing (I go further than when doing PMD). I still release early but later than my previous swing. I need to try at the range with a ball in play and a target and polish the move somehow (knee flex, distance to the ball, etc.).

      From a body perspective, couldn't we describe the different phases of the swing as the UP-swing, the DOWN-swing (the fall) and the UP-SWING? A vertical body move and not a lateral one.

      Happy New Year everybody!
      Last edited by Ferko; 01-01-2018, 05:15 AM.


      • kid_fullerene
        kid_fullerene commented
        Editing a comment
        Hi Ferko - from both a concept and athletic standpoint - what you're showing in those videos is much closer to what your WIG swing would be. You've 'cracked the code' in relation to the body mechanics piece - and that's an important thing. I would definitely suggest talking with Gary either through this thread or through Direct Message in terms of what elements in your setup and grip you would need to build awareness of to make the next steps - it relates to how you're able to put this action into a proper relationship with your sense of the target and directing your newly discovered momentum towards it. The potential temptation is to get this sense of ..'I have this how do I aim it?' - the actual action emerges out of the setup that is aimed.. .you're never NOT aimed ..I guess I realize that doesn't make a lot of intuitive sense right this second..but the distinction is more important than it first seems.. the 'swing machine' is sort of 'shot specific''s a pattern of awareness and balance that will allow the right amount of action into that target. I guess I better leave it there.. but a way to think about it is that your relative amounts of 'pumping' or 'whipping' actions will vary depending on how far or in what character you need for your shot. The WIG Unicorn is actually very much a herd of little shot unicorns .. cheers, k_f

      • Ferko
        Ferko commented
        Editing a comment
        Agree 100% with your statement that "a way to think about it is that your relative amounts of 'pumping' or 'whipping' actions will vary depending on how far or in what character you need for your shot.". Pumping is a consequence.

    • #78
      Trying this up and down motion again was so so. Didn't feel the power of the slash. So I continued my reasoning. If I do PMD well that's because I'm already in motion. So looked at the forward press video (thanks Gary for the great compilation). I decided to go for a waggle with wrists hinge going backsward and wrists hinge going forward. Just do a few and swing. Felt good. What I noticed is that in the waggle I hinged my wrists very early. It feels that I'm actually starting the swing with a wrists hinge. I will try at the range but it felt really good in terms of centering and ball direction (played a plastic ball). Not sure about power but we'll see.


      Swing started by hinging the wrists immediately

      OK new year resolution. I'll stop posting every single experiment. Feel it may start to be a bit too much!
      Last edited by Ferko; 01-01-2018, 07:59 AM.


      • kid_fullerene
        kid_fullerene commented
        Editing a comment
        you can always post them..if they no longer serve you, pull them down.. but for the moment - it's good to have a running record of things that you're thinking about and ways that you're trying to identify them into feels/patterns and results. The key concept for this process that you have to get a sense of where the weight of the clubhead is .. you can choose to set your wrists and they will put the clubhead in position ..and that's not a bad thing... but what if you initiated the move and the weight of the clubhead set your wrists? What might that look like or feel like? What might that do for your action? Does that invite in Gravity and Momentum into your swing? Is that different from trying to induce or simulate it? You're on the right track .. I would have you try defining a target .. make it a close one that you know you can hit a ball to .. and then try to figure out the momentum needed to put the ball where you want in relation to it.. the stuff you're looking for will show up.. but in an important context it is an action pattern that relates to the shot you need .. hope that helps ..keep up the great focus.. cheers k_f

      • Ferko
        Ferko commented
        Editing a comment
        I'm glad to post. Just don't want to annoy everybody with all the thoughts going through my little head... Regarding what is cause and consequence, I agree with your analysis. It's true that right now I'm really in comparison mode between PMD and my swing. Call it awarenes I guess. At the end of the day I understand I'll need to go to an external focus.

        Another interesting point for me is the weight of the clubhead. I've always been focused on the arms-club-unit... Actually I should say the arms only (always this wet towel analogy). Tried a few swings focusing on throwing the club (not the arm and not the clubhead). It felt different. Felt more extension in my arms and had to get more distance from the ball at address.

    • #79
      Reading Tchouang Tseu as he's called in French. In English, the man is known as Zhuang Zhou or Zhuangzi. Section nineteen of his writing is entitled Mastering Life. It contains the following text.

      Originally posted by Zhuangzi
      Confucius was seeing the sights at Lu-liang, where the water falls from a height of thirty fathoms and races and boils along for forty li, so swift that no fish or other water creature can swim in it. He saw a man dive into the water and, supposing that the man was in some kind of trouble and intended to end his life, he ordered his disciples to line up on the bank and pull the man out. But after the man had gone a couple of hundred paces, he came out of the water and began strolling along the base of the embankment, his hair streaming down, singing a song. Confucius ran after him and said, "At first I thought you were a ghost, but now I see you're a man. May I ask if you have some special way of staying afloat in the water?"

      "I have no way. I began with what I was used to, grew up with my nature, and let things come to completion with fate. I go under with the swirls and come out with the eddies, following along the way the water goes and never thinking about myself. That's how I can stay afloat."

      Confucius said, "What do you mean by saying that you began with what you were used to, grew up with your nature, and let things come to completion with fate?"

      "I was born on the dry land and felt safe on the dry land - that was what I was used to. I grew up with the water and felt safe in the water - that was my nature. I don't know why I do what I do - that's fate."
      Thought about golf. Way to go.


      • #80 WATER, my friends....

        Bruce Lee

        dude abides
        "OLD" Forum Participation

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        "Be water, my friends"


        • #81
          Back from the range. Kept comparing PMD and my swing. Practice cutting tree too and noticed the differences with my swing. The first one was rhythm. How could I have forgotten about that! With PMD and cutting tree, I could feel the rhythm, the plant and the fall.

          The second difference was my upper right arm staying close to the chest and the right elbow bending. I always do that when cutting tree, doing PMD and the like. Feels kind of like a baseball swing.

          Also, noticed when cutting tree that my right hand was way on top of the axe. I was confused at that stage because with a club in hand I apply pressure on the side and not on top (knife the grip video). I don't have a strong grip i.e. my left hand old the umbrella but the club face is square. Anyway, I put my right hand on top of the left hand i.e. the life line of the right hand was on top of the left thumb. I also felt the right index finger positionned as a "trigger finger". At address, the line between the thumb and index finger of the right hand pointed to my chin. I also played with more or less the left thumb extension. Confused. Need to revisit the grip.

          I also paid attention to the right hand being passive. But that was too many things at the same time.

          Anyway, here is the swing. Still overswining. Felt a lot better with the rhythm though. Need to focus on the whip toward the target. Also noticed that the finish was higher. It felt I was really waiting at the top but looking at the video it doesn't look like that. I think I need to wait a lot more. This will give the time to plant properly and whip to the target. Like cutting the tree. Be cool mate. Be cool.

          Thank you all for your patience.


          • kid_fullerene
            kid_fullerene commented
            Editing a comment
            Ferko - those are showing some signs of progress.. I like the balance and the overall impression of your swing is one where you have a lot of control, stick with this line of exploration - I think it will continue to show you some good things. I'm hesitant to give you 'notes' on this as it might well send you back down the slope you're so determinedly climbing here's where you can jump off if you choose not to read further.

            1. the downswing motion seems like it's more of an aggressive upper body move down with a more passive lower body (in particular hip) being moved out of the way ..
            2. some of this is all sort of determined by your backswing that the ACU levitates..but you seem to add another upper body rotation to work to get 'behind' the ball.. I'm not sure that additional movement is really necessary in your swing.. and it tends to work against your overall balance, rhythm and tempo

            here's the challenge(s) - you have this timed .. and have a sense of where everything is and how it works.(what the feels are) if you were simply to take my 'notes' and try to implement them ..shortening up your backswing for example (the result would be just letting the arms levitate and no additional turn)'s going to take you some time to figure out the feels and timing of that. .. in short, it's likely to feel a bit rushed and possibly 'empty' ..

            the other is the role of the hips - in that in WIG ..Shawn has the upper body being rotated by the lower .. so that the 'out of the way' is in response to the weight..but not necessarily the weight of the upper body working over.. none of this is 'end of the world' and you can definitely play with what you have and shoot good scores.. all of this is just observation and only in relation for you to clarify your understanding of results as you continue your building of technique.



          • Schrodinger
            Schrodinger commented
            Editing a comment
            A good way to checking aurally whether you are overswinging (which also tends to go hand in hand with an early release) is to just get a bamboo cane or alignment rod and hear the 'whoosh' post impact rather than very early in the downswing. Do it with left and right hand/arm only and then with both arms/hands. You can also swing a heavy rope checking that it's still taut through impact to target

            Both can help improve the rhythm and the kinetic sequence of your swing and also minimise the stalling of your pivot and the flipping of your wrists (and chicken winging). Some simple videos are below as an example:


            Last edited by Schrodinger; 01-02-2018, 12:50 PM.

        • #82
          Hi Ferko,

          Try some of these suggestions.

          ROLE OF THE LEFT ARM In Swing
          Jim Ballard
          March 18, 2008

          Keep your lead elbow pointed down. It should rotate slightly outward, but not by much. Let the trail/right arm fold where it wants to during the backswing. Don’t try and keep things under your arm pits. Just feel how the lead/left elbow points downward during your backswing and get out of the way to allow it to swing freely and straight. Notice how your posture and backswing should feel and look different.

          Now watch this video by Shawn and practice getting out of the way. Compare the feel of both videos.

          Notice how his arms remain straight as Shawn gets out of the way. Notice how he maintains his forward posture as he does this.

          Now do your PMD and compare the feels of all three. You might feel less of an Forearm Rotation and more of a Shoulder Rotation.

          Also see this video:

          Tilted Spiral Part 4: 5/29/2014

          The upper body in the brace tilt explanation, especially about the shoulders. The lead shoulder goes up and the rear shoulder goes down in the downswing. Your release to target will get you an amazing weight shift. Learn to UNWIND around the steadiness of the sternal notch on the downswing and you will realize that this will allow you to stay with the target or the direction of the start of the ball flight on the way out to target!

          I also like your idea of an early Wrist Hinge.
          until you stop over-swinging. Lets first review what Happy Roman posted: “In the backswing, the left wrist will hinge and the right wrist will hinge and bend. In the follow through, the left wrist hinges and bends and the right wrist only hinges.” So you want to feel the left arm wrist hinge early and just allow the right arm to hinge and fold naturally.

          This is a guess on my part, the wrist hinge feel by you is in the hands and overly bending and rotation of the left arm. So get that wrist hinge out of the way early while your arm is still pretty straight and feel more of a connection with your shoulder. Once you feel this connection you will not need to have an early wrist hinge.

          Also be aware that all wrist hinges are not all the same:

          May 11, 2017

          Radius Bone of the Forearm
          Ulna Bone of the Forearm

          HINGED WRIST
          Lead Hand is slightly cupped.
          Load both and Release both anatomical snuff boxes.
          Cut Release.
          RUD Radial-Ulnar Deviation
          RD Radial-deviation = the thumb moves up towards radius bone of the forearm.
          UD Ulnar-deviation = the pinkie finger moves down towards the ulna bone of the forearm.
          Loading of the fishing pole.
          Hammering a nail in a door frame.
          Baseball batter.
          Sword Analogy.
          Velocity increase

          BOWED WRIST
          Lead Hand is bowed.
          Loading of the Trail Hand and the Lead Hand is along for the ride.
          Cut Through/BodyHold Off Release.
          Dorsiflexion = back of the hand moves up towards the forearm.
          Palmar-flexion = palm of the hand moves down towards the forearm.
          Skip the Stone on water analogy.
          Baseball Pitch of a fast ball.

          See if any of these upper body suggestions might help. If you can figure out how to stop your overswing you will be on your way to WIG heaven.



          • #83
            Hi guys,

            I don't know if we all have a definition of "over-swing" on which we'd all agree?
            But, I'm pretty sure that EACH of us would say that we KNOW one when we SEE one?

            As much as I HATE using the term.....Can we all agree that the FIRST movement in the "down-swing" is DOWN?
            Our Chairman often refers to it as "...let it fall."

            In my observation and experience, IF one "over-swings" CANNOT initially go DOWN?
            That's because your NECK is in the way?
            From that "over-swing" top-of-backswing position, the ONLY thing that one can do is FLIP UP (and by extension, flip BACK?)
            What ELSE is there that you can do?
            If you "let if fall"'ll fall in FRONT of you?

            So, in MY mind, the issue is not how to recover from the "over-swing", but to ELIMINATE it!
            We've danced all around it.... Don't DO that.

            Said another way, you're going TOO FAR in your back-swing.

            Until we get that under control, the ONLY thing we can do is "early-extension", "hit-from-the-top"...
            The BALL MUST become the "target". There's no other way?

            I am enjoying this thread very much, but perhaps it's best for me to go away quietly now....

            Love this place and you guys

            Be water, my friends

            dude abides
            Last edited by COSTA103; 01-02-2018, 02:04 PM.
            "OLD" Forum Participation

            Entry Date: 18-JAN-2011
            Posts: 1813
            Thank You: 1048

            "Be water, my friends"


            • Ferko
              Ferko commented
              Editing a comment
              Agree with your analysis. No other solution than early release from an overswing position. Need to eliminate the overswing.

          • #84
            No such thing as "over swing" if your right arm is staying as wide as comfortably possible!!! One can not over rotate with out losing the necessary posture and ground support to swing to the target either!!!


            • #85
              I always talk about my right elbow staying close to my body when doing PMD or cutting tree. Here is the comparison between cutting a tree and my (over)swing. I had back problem and stopped golf nearly two years ago. I had an issue with my floating ribs on the right side getting stuck and not coming back in place. Have to go the osteopath to put them back in place. I believe the pictures explain why. Doing the move without warm-up to take the pictures really hurts my rib cage on the right side when I reached the "top" of the backswing.

              Click image for larger version  Name:	back view small.jpg Views:	1 Size:	69.0 KB ID:	10510

              I think the issue comes from the fact that I tried to have maximum extension in the backswing with both arms. I actually do it very well in the overswing while the right arm folds when cutting tree. Also, there is no or very little wrists hinge during most of the overswing. I think that's why I always say that I don't feel the wrists hinge in the backswing.

              Interestingly, I read about natural preferences in the golf swing. One preference concerns the compactness of the swing vs going wide. Compactness means that the arm pit stays in contact / connected with the chest (obviously the elbow doesn't stay in contact with the chest. Just the arm pit). Going wide means that the arm is in full extension (disconnected from the chest).

              There are 4 profiles according to the analysis of these natural preferences. The difference between them is that some people keep their right arm connected, other their left arm, other both and other none! In my case, my profile indicates that the right arm should stay connected and the left arm not. Exactly what I do when cutting tree.

              Another interesting information I glanced regarding natural preferences is the protraction. I am not sure this is the right word in English. The French word is "décroché" of the shoulder. This is a little move forward of the shoulder blade at address. Careful, the chest is not turning though.

              In my case, this "décroché" happens on the right side (this is apparently linked to my profile. Other people do that with their left shoulder). Interestingly when I take my position to cut a tree, I can feel this little move forward of the right shoulder blade just before being ready to start the backswing. It's pretty subtle but when you know what to look for it's easy to notice.

              Anyway, I'll keep exploring PMD vs overswing feels. Need to look at grip and grip pressure. I'll try the drill with the towel or hankerchief under the right arm pit and see how it goes. I'll give a go at the "décroché" too. And I'll reread carefully your latest posts and comments. Ultimately, may go with a direct wrists hinge in the backswing!
              Last edited by Ferko; 01-03-2018, 03:15 AM.


              • Schrodinger
                Schrodinger commented
                Editing a comment
                Hi Ferko - It's interesting you mentioned having little wrist hinge, because maybe this could cause an overswing. Allowing the lead wrist to 'radial deviate' is a source of potential energy in the golf swing . So if your intent (and goldilocks ) is saying you need this amount of momentum for your intended task, limiting your wrist hinge means your going to have to find another way to generate that momentum (ie. overswinging using your pivot and right arm more?). Might me worth experimenting letting your wrists hinge naturally on their 'snuff boxes' a bit more while swinging to a target (ie. let the inertia of the dynamic weight of the club hinge your wrists).

            • #86
              The range was closed this morning because of extreme wind condition. Practice a bit on a patch of grass in the parking lot. There were plenty of trees! Realised comparing PMD and my swing is not so good in the sense that I'm already in motion with PMD. Took my posture and cut a tree. Realised immediately that I kept my head down and even my chin down during the whole swing (looking at the base of the tree). Maintaining the pressure cooker so to speak. Also more on the front leg at address and even during the swing. Took a divot in front of the ball. Now, my shoulder kind of hit my head so need to look at the posture a bit more. Moving to some sort of task here?


              • #87
                The tree is too static for me. Need to feel I'm going through. Moved to the volleyball (couldn't hit it too strong so kind of stopped the move around impact). Much effortless! Getting closer?

                Hitting the volley ball

                The (gentle) swing


                • #88
                  Continued to compare my swing with the backswing I have when cutting tree or hitting through a volley ball. In both cases I take the club up with early wrists hinge. I just incorporated the same move in my backswing. I now have good shoulder rotation, keep the ball in sight and don't hurt my back. Definitively not a toss.

                  Hitting the volley ball I feel I have an early wrists unhinging. Feel it happens in the downswing! Also, noticed my chest stays more open i.e. my chest doesn't turn to the target with the arms stuck behind. Feel it's a leftover of me trying to swing my arms with my chest (I think I really misunderstood the "my arms are like wet towels" analogy). The good thing is that my arms have space to go through. It's like I stay longer behind the ball. It ends up with a quick rotation toward the target feeling a nice snap. This is a new feel and I was not consistent.

                  The last thing I noticed with the volley ball is the leg extension. Somehow it feels like it's helping the arms go through. It happens around the impact zone. Legs pushing into the ground.

                  I'll keep working on those. I hope the volley ball analogy is a good reference!


                  • #89
                    Originally posted by Ferko View Post
                    Continued to compare my swing with the backswing I have when cutting tree or hitting through a volley ball. In both cases I take the club up with early wrists hinge. I just incorporated the same move in my backswing. I now have good shoulder rotation, keep the ball in sight and don't hurt my back. Definitively not a toss.
                    Looks like I missed the toss vs place (r)evolution that took place in June 2014...

                    Am I now a member of the 'Quote Yourself Club'?


                    • kid_fullerene
                      kid_fullerene commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Ferko - absolutely a member in good standing, I think that there will be Officer elections for the new year - I'm throwing your name into the ring..and thinking you would be terrific.. cheers k_f

                  • #90
                    Session at the range today. Started my backswing in the same way I cut tree or hit a volley ball. The result was so so. Tried different things but was getting lost again. So I decided to hit my 3W to end my session.

                    It's funny. I never tried to manipulate anything with my 3W. I remember a few years back working at the range with it. I just focused on throwing to the target. I knew I should abandon control to gravity and I did. I noticed sometimes my arms would crash into my body or I would stay behind on the back foot. Just went back to my focus. I don't know how many practice sessions it took me but after a while things just went through without me paying attention. I just threw everything out there to the target. That was it and I love it.

                    So I decided to compare my 3W and 3i swing. I know, I know, 3i is a bit of a vanity club but I'm human after all ;-) There is a difference in length but that was the closest I could be in terms of shaft length. Hit my 3W. Hit my 3i trying to get the same feel. Comparing the address position. Comparing the start of the backswing. Moving to the "top" of the backswing position. Moving to the downswing and so on.

                    What I noticed first was the address position. My arms were more in front of my chest with my 3W. My right elbow was pointing more toward my hips and the inside more toward the sky. Vey similar to Hogan's position at address (not saying I have the same swing though!).

                    Click image for larger version

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                    What I noticed with my 3W is that I keep the right arm close to my body up to the top of my backswing. Not so with my iron. So, I deciced to do the same with my irons. Very strange at first. First swings were bad. I compared again with my 3W and noticed I wasn't finishing the backswing with my 3i. Right arm close to the chest. Finish backswing. And after a few swings it happened. By keeping my right arm close to my body it allowed my whole right side including my right arm to hit through the ball. It was like punching through. I don't how far went my 3i but I never hit it like that! Repeated the swing with the remaining balls.

                    I studied some stuff on natural preferences in the golf swing. According to my profile (Aerial High Mobile Point a.k.a Rhythmic), I should keep my right arm close to the body and the left arm far from body. For my profile, a good drill is to swing with a towel or headcover under the right arm pit. Never thought I should keep it that close.

                    Ended up my session like that. I had aha moment before so we'll see next time if it's still there.