Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

View this with an open mind and see what it does for you

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    There's a lot to learn from MM because his approach contrasts with wig in several important ways.

    MM plays the hand eye game whereas wig is more body/spacial awareness.

    Good to experience both and see which approach works for you .
    swing down the line

    Comment


    • kid_fullerene
      kid_fullerene commented
      Editing a comment
      Wooltie ..

      wow.. so great to see you back on the boards.!!
      thought for sure you had ended up in Witness Protection..
      glad to see that even if you have .. you periodically can get on to the internet..

      hope to see you drop by again .. hope you're hitting them straight.. and if I do see you playing on an undisclosed Golf Course location ..

      I'll just pretend I never knew you ..

      cheers my friend

      k_f

  • #17
    Hi guys,

    Great to see you BACK, wooltie!
    Hope we find that you're here to stay.

    I don't believe that "hand-eye game" and "spacial awareness" need be, nor CAN be mutually exclusive?

    As big an advocate as I am for our Chairman's approach, I cannot suggest that, as I'm executing the golf-shot, there is NO element of "hand-eye" action occurring?

    I view it as a difference in FOCUS?

    IMHO, "hand-eye" connotes an INTENTION to "hit" or make contact with something?
    That tends to refer one's FOCUS to that which we are trying to "hit"?

    In WIG, we do not "focus" on the "hit"?
    But? I don't believe that we think that somehow magically the "hand-eye" instinct somehow magically evaporates?

    We DO focus on delivering "motion-energy" towards our TARGET (to which we differentiate from that which we are trying to hit?)

    The "collision" with the golf-ball becomes a BY-PRODUCT of our delivery to Target as a function of WHERE we have chosen to place our feet.

    Love this place and you guys.
    Great to have you back!

    dude abides.
    "OLD" Forum Participation

    Entry Date: 18-JAN-2011
    Posts: 1813
    Thank You: 1048

    "Be water, my friends"

    Comment


    • kid_fullerene
      kid_fullerene commented
      Editing a comment
      Hi Dude -

      so 'motion-energy' to target with a focus that is not at the ball .. not to derail or hijack this notion.. but I'm guessing that you might qualify as a 'swinger ' of the golf club vs. being a 'hitter' of the golf ball?

      do you think that there are any successful 'hitter's' out there??

      and if so, how do you think that they are finding success - and is it sustainable?

      cheers for now

      k_f

  • #18
    Dude -- it's like Lenin said...you find who benefits...and that sort of thing.

    N - E - who........

    I'll be a blunter version of myself, and hopefully some friends will find a rhyme or reason to keep me here rather than exiling me to the ravines of golf purgatory...

    I don't really practice the WIG swing anymore or use it in the way that Shawn currently describes, or even in the classical "preacher man" videos of his youtube glory days. (My, has been since before I was married that I first stumbled upon the man talking crazy nonsense about hip rotation...think I was married in 2010...so that's some time, my friend!) I have had one on one lessons with Shawn twice.

    I can make WIG work, especially off the tee. Proof is a youtube video my eldest son took during summer golf this year where all 6 years of of him learned to drive golf cart (yeah, I have kids now.) Here's a draw, but my stance is open to the 'target line' because I like my eye line, swing line and target line to be one and the same.

    I'm just not wired to swing that way. I prefer a more MM approach where you 'swing the arms' and the 'body reacts', but you literally look at the ball and 'make a motion through the ball'. In this sense, the game is 'hand eye' rather than 'swinging to a target out there' (which is WIG's approach.)

    WIG works. I won't debate that. It works. But I would argue that it may not work for everyone. A lot of people struggle with it, as I did, but I now know why I struggled with it and still do at times -- and the struggle is something I can't overcome with out A LOT of practice...

    to the point that...

    I'm just not wired to SEE IT that way.

     
    swing down the line

    Comment


    • #19
      Hi Wooltie, Greetings WIG Friends Everywhere..

      not only are you back - but a current swing video ..from your now much bigger son, who apparently can drive a cart and work a video camera..

      that's a lot of forward progress !!

      glad you're able to get out and also to take your Son.. it won't be too long before you and he will be wandering the Links together.. it's a great family game and clearly you have some lovely courses to get out and enjoy nature in..

      that's the important thing - shared time together, chasing gravity and momentum, trying to find ways to get better and keeping each other going when the search seems futile and all seems lost..

      The Swing looks pretty good, very relaxed and while I couldn't tell exact ball flight.. seems like you struck it solid and kept it in play.. which is at the level of a great many of us, the whole point of any shot..

      You make an interesting point about 'not wired/not doing it in a WIG way' .. and instead, literally looking at or acquiring a sense of target in a more linear or visual way..

      I'm interpreting that as a sort of 'train tracks' or parallel alignment .

      That's clearly a distinction with how WIG would see or express alignment ..which is shown as Dynamic.. where one in essence walks into a shot seeing the club's relationship to target relative to the swing bottom..

      I would speculate that it might be the difference between a more Arms Dominant Swing.. Shoulders/Arms Eyeline in a parallel with a more stable or 'following' lower core/lower body..

      vs.

      a More Body Dominant swing that generates a sort of 'walking/falling' action pattern with a dropping ACU with a whip bottoming out consistently that can be predicted and then aimed..

      I'll have to find one of these - but it reminds me of a YouTube video where you have to find pictures of different things within a pattern, some people see certain things first, others see it differently ..

      it also reminds me a little of this video at about 6:00 .. where he has students to close their eyes or look up from the ball and swing the club



      the premise being that trying to impose the eye line on the action leads to trouble ..one has to feel the club in relation to the body..

      I don't necessarily advocate this particular instructor or instruction .. simply that he is articulating out a pretty well known paradox in golf ... that is that when you stand sideways to your target/action/intention.. things get a bit complicated..

      the interesting part of the game and the human dynamics/behaviors that surround it -- is that as seekers of 'golf truth' - we have to solve that problem for ourselves as best we can..

      here's the 'animal illusion' thing I was mentioning earlier



      yeah - I'm not real good at finding all the animals either .. and still not sure how it relates to golf, exactly.. but the premise is that potentially how you recognize and apply patterns to your reality (remember you sense with your brain.. which interprets.. not your senses which merely pass the information through)..

      is going to greatly influence how you choose to respond to your 'puzzle' or challenge .. especially when you're standing sideways..

      Am I right in assuming that in talking about how you're 'wired' and how you are now seeking a golf path where you can 'see' and 'stand to the line' that this is what you are describing?

      hope there is still some green grass and warmer temps where you are.. nothing wrong with getting some 'bonus rounds' in if you can in 2018

      cheers for now

      k_f

      from the hidden Ravine below 13th at CN G&CC
      tu nunquam hic

      Secret Swing Tech c/o Pigaman @ Crackpot Labs

      wisdomingolf.com/index.php?option=com_ku...&id=47972&Itemid=225

      let energy instead of style define you.

      Proud Member 'Quote Yourself Club'

      Comment


      • #20
        Yes, I swing on my eyeline. My eyeline is also my shoulder line. Pick the intermediate point to create the straight line to the target, then swing to the line and send the ball pretty darn straight down this line.

        With WIG, you're swinging either left or right of the target line and fading or drawing the ball back to the target line.

        ​​​​​​With WIG, the eyes don't really play the same role as in a hand-eye swing. The body, in particular the feel of the release in a direction, is what marries the action to the intention. Alignment is dynamic as you say because the feel of the moving body releasing in a direction is what tells you whether or not you're aligned.

        I'm wired to use my eyes and vision instead of my body to marry action and intention. I look down at the line and swing to the line.

        I suspect I'm not alone.
        Last edited by wooltie; 3 weeks ago.
        swing down the line

        Comment


        • #21
          Hi wooltie…

          What governs your swing when you're making a PRACTICE swing?

          dude abides
          "OLD" Forum Participation

          Entry Date: 18-JAN-2011
          Posts: 1813
          Thank You: 1048

          "Be water, my friends"

          Comment


          • wooltie
            wooltie commented
            Editing a comment
            I make pmd type practice swings, but I swing to the straight line I see on the ground.

            Looking down at the line (the shortest distance on the ground between the ball and the intermediate point I selected,) I can tell if the pmd swing is to the right of, down, or to the left of the line. I use my eyes to tell where I'm aimed. I aim to swing down the line.

            I don't 'swing to a target out there' -- not because that approach doesn't work, indeed it does, it just doesn't really work for me.
            Last edited by wooltie; 3 weeks ago.

        • #22
          So do you swing "directionally" relative to your "intermediate point"??
          If that's so......I don't see (no pun intended) the distinction?
          You're just swinging to a "target" that's a little CLOSER than mine?

          dude abides
          "OLD" Forum Participation

          Entry Date: 18-JAN-2011
          Posts: 1813
          Thank You: 1048

          "Be water, my friends"

          Comment


          • wooltie
            wooltie commented
            Editing a comment
            I see what you mean...I like your style Dude.

            I am swinging directionally, but I see the direction with my eyes -- I don't feel the direction with my body.

            You know how Shawn does that drill where you toss a golf ball with your hand to a spot 'out there'? Remember, he swings his arm in his golf posture then releases the ball out there? The move is based in part upon feeling a motion and directing the motion, but you're not actually looking at where you're throwing the ball.

            I'm seeing where the motion is relative to the target line e.g. going right, straight, left, then making that motion down the target line, looking at the ball, and putting the clubface through the ball.
            Last edited by wooltie; 3 weeks ago.

          • kid_fullerene
            kid_fullerene commented
            Editing a comment
            I think it's almost time to consider a thread on visualization .. as I'm thinking that it may not be so much 'optics'.. but a conceptualization of how one is relating to the target and line and clubface relative to that line that is different somehow.. I think that 'abstraction' is likely at the heart of this .. as while there are things that end up in the same place and perhaps even are functionally pretty equivalent .. the sense of them seems to vary greatly .. but is still seemingly existing in schools of thought..

        • #23
          IMHO you are saying doing the exact same thing as Shawn is.

          Comment


          • wooltie
            wooltie commented
            Editing a comment
            I'm not sure I follow.

            Wig is about sending a body driven action either to the right or to the left of where you want the ball to end up, and you purposely draw or fade the ball.

            That's how the swing can 'feel like you're swinging way to the right' (because you actually are) yet the ball eventually works it's way to where you want it to stop e.g swing to the right of the green, draw to the pin; start the ball to the right, draw it back to the 'target'.
            Last edited by wooltie; 3 weeks ago.

        • #24
          Ken, I agree with you that the swing is the same. It is the perception of how the swing occurs that is different.

          Wooltie, Shawn does talk about the dandelion stem under the ball that you are cutting. In fact, he says he is aware of the ball and he sees the ball when he sets up. He says that intention of the swing is to go down the line and through the ball at the intermediate target. However, he has his intermediate target set a bit right or left of a straight line through the ball ex: \ | /. The way I understand your swing intention is to go straight down a line through the ball.

          kid, I agree with you that a thread on just visualization is needed.

          Comment


          • #25
            Originally posted by wooltie View Post
            I'm not sure I follow.

            Wig is about sending a body driven action either to the right or to the left of where you want the ball to end up, and you purposely draw or fade the ball.

            That's how the swing can 'feel like you're swinging way to the right' (because you actually are) yet the ball eventually works it's way to where you want it to stop e.g swing to the right of the green, draw to the pin; start the ball to the right, draw it back to the 'target'.
            Hi Wooltie

            I'm not sure that this particular video speaks directly what you're trying to describe... but it might help provide a useful visualization/illustration ..

            from Shaun Webb/Golf Gears - and what's cool is that he is showing this from overhead (very useful) 'bone view' (very WIG) and with a rotational more lower /mid core type swing (applicable)

            so you can see that from overhead - the drop of the club works under the initial takeaway path .. and drops a bit 'inside' and works apparently 'out' relative to the head position of the golfer.



            there are a couple things that would have been cool/useful to see..

            if Shaun had shown the hands working in towards the turned hips post impact .. that might help a connect a useful mental dot or two for some ..

            the other .. and this is a bit tough to see from the overhead angle .. but a notion of where the clubhead is at the 'top' of the backswing and then where it 'drops' .. as that is particularly relevant to it being on the 'gravity path' where the 'around and out' suddenly works like a charm..

            for you ..

            what might be a bit illuminating is to look at the model golfer's head/eye position in this sequence.. from where the eyes are .. and relative to the action .. it establishes a frame of reference .. so one's perception of apparent action and one's mentality in terms of trying to experience it in an an organized way is now fully in play.

            my belief is that one has to make a choice of what you're going to work with ..

            in WIG - one of the 'out of the ways' (separate thread...maybe I'll bring some of this over there) is to perceive the swing action being through and towards the target and the ball just gets collected.. sort of a 'line of action' that I think you're describing as being curved back into the target (simply a matter of degree)

            to see a 'straight line' or 'straight line action' relative to the ball is to become 'ball focused' and to lose the action..

            what I'd offer is that the 'initial straight line' is a powerful organizing principle mentally .. and it's very hard to let go of .. and I also believe that there are swings and methodologies (including Mike Malaska) that work with that 'parallel left aka Train Tracks' alignment .. which in my mind exists differently from the original WIG concepts..

            the dynamism and prediction needed along with the visualizations that exist in that context are hallmarks of WIG .. and it absolutely works..

            the threshold .. is whether one is able to make the jump to it .. effectively letting go or allowing the 'straight line visualization' to be replaced by a different concept.

            this also goes to my notes or attempted efforts on Visualizations differing by method.. (separate thread) ..

            but thanks to your question/comment/observations - I have a model that I can at least attempt to speak to and demonstrate what I feel are the distinctions..

            the whole upshot of this is that ..

            it isn't necessarily easy to do .. you have articulated a few times how your mind sees it as lines .. and you found a way to put your sense of action on the line where the ball is as a more effective model for you..

            I can't help but wonder how many more frustrated golfers are out there - who also, for whatever reason(s) can't make the 'leap of faith' over to seeing it 'dynamically' or as movement organizing the model .. vs having a model that organizes the movement..

            half empty /half full ..

            sometimes it's just a matter of how one chooses to perceive things..

            I'm thankful that you choose to speak your truth .. and hope that your golf journey is a a good one next year and the years beyond.. and that you also choose to share your journey with us.

            cheers

            k_f
            from the hidden Ravine below 13th at CN G&CC
            tu nunquam hic

            Secret Swing Tech c/o Pigaman @ Crackpot Labs

            wisdomingolf.com/index.php?option=com_ku...&id=47972&Itemid=225

            let energy instead of style define you.

            Proud Member 'Quote Yourself Club'

            Comment

            Working...
            X