Lead Side at Impact

[Cally]

Where should the lead side be at impact?

[Schrodinger]

Hi Cally

I usually do perpetual swings and make a judgement of where the ball needs to be in my clubface trajectory. Normally , its nearer my lead shoulder joint but I've never really referenced exactly where (ie, whether in front or behind the ball). Actually , I'd find it difficult to see exactly how the ball is lined up compared to my 'dynamic lead shoulder joint' position in space unless someone was taking a face on image of me at impact.

But here is a trace of the Tiger lead shoulder joint (his old swing when he had most success).

I think the red dot is his sternum notch.



Apparently there is a strong correlation between the lead shoulder path and the hand path.

• The less curved path of the lead shoulder corresponds with the less curved path of the hands in the early downswing .
• The more curved path of the shoulder corresponds with 'release'

Not sure whether this will help you in any way.

[kid_fullerene]

FWIW, since yesterday I've been looking for some videos on this lead side feeling that I was trying to describe and I found some videos that Shawn did which definitely confirm the lead side staying behind the hit feeling. In fact, he even uses the same terminology of "staying behind the hit" with the lead side. Maybe I heard Shawn say this in the past and I forgot where I heard it . . . he has so many videos now it's hard to keep up with all of them.

And I also found some videos by Bobby Lopez that address this very same idea of the lead shoulder "staying behind the hit" so to speak where he talks about the lead shoulder not getting in front of the imaginary line between the lead shoulder and the ball . . . he calls it "offsides" if the lead shoulder moves in front of this imaginary line.

Again, the picture Schrodinger posted above is a great example of this where the lead shoulder is in line with, or even a little behind, the golf ball at impact. This is staying behind the hit!

BTW, just an observation about this forum. With the exception of Schrodinger, Kid, and a couple others, this forum seems to have gone down the tubes with the lack of participation. I'm sure there are a number of reasons for this, but this forum just isn't what it was back in the "Happyroman" days!

Hi Cally

glad to hear of your progress with Driver - and I agree that Schrodinger's visualization of this is a great help in moving it all forward.

I had started to try and put together some ideas about how to approach it .. but I think the crux of getting your observation and progress together was validating out what you had discovered over the 'bigger picture' stuff, so I'm glad that I didn't lead the charge into the 'golf weeds' .. where I often play from..

More importantly - you as an advanced player looking to get better, continues to learn and to share ..which is at this heart of this community.

So much of the progress I've made over the years has been driven by the friendships and observations of the WIG forum and I try to continue to 'pay back' in day to day support.

I agree with you that in order for this little place to flourish - we need to follow your lead and share what we're working on. WIG is more than a 'swing method' it continues to be a philosophy of learning and focus to create a dynamic where we can enjoy getting better together.

I see plenty of visitors to the forum - I 2nd your call to action - please participate and share.. this great game is always evolving, there are plenty of new technologies, new ideas and history to talk about.

I'll try and do more as well - over and above supporting my fellow WIG forum friends.

cheers for now

k_f

[Ken Robie]

As a side caveat (I don't know what that word means Kid! ;>) ), We must remember that the lead shoulder is actually moving up and away from the ball as it relates to the target line. So any feeling or visual representation of it passing the ball in a vertical orientation will reduce the maximum launch angle if the ACU is fully extende.

[anzac]

Where should the lead side be at impact?

Cally
A good guide is that the left shoulder should return through its address position or even behind it, never ahead (towards the target) for normal shots. Unfortunately popular golf instruction amplifies shifting the weight to the left side during transition which is usually misunderstood by most people. The weight is shifted across with the left shoulder going with it.
Swing guru, Kelvin Miyahira came up with the concept of a 'chi line' to help his followers rotate the tailbone away from the target during transition instead of thrusting the hips towards the target during transition. He may have a you-tube video on the subject.
The chi line is an imaginary line drawn from the target foot to the head.

[kid_fullerene]

Thanks anzac! That's the conclusion that I arrived at too!

BTW, just a side note for anyone who wonders why this thread doesn't look complete, it's because I deleted most of my posts a few weeks ago. With the way the participation on this Forum has declined I was thinking that I was pretty much done with this place; and in the event that I didn't log on again I went ahead and made the deletions as I never intended for my old posts to remain out there on the WWW in perpetuity. Besides, I figured that whatever small benefit my previous posts may have had were already realized by those I responded to.

Cally

good to have you back in action - and while there is no doubt wisdom 'yet to be' .. you did plenty of to help the forum before and understand why you would want to take the material down , but hope you can put some of it back up ..

I'm also glad to see the good people of the forum revisit the notion of where and how the eyes are relative to the swing and how this is part and parcel of any complete swing.effort.

I maintain that this is a much more important insight than how it might first appear...

more than what I feel like I can dig into on this pass..

but don't let go of this...

it's the stuff golf dreams are made of ..

cheers for now

k_f

[Julie H]

Cally
A good guide is that the left shoulder should return through its address position or even behind it, never ahead (towards the target) for normal shots. Unfortunately popular golf instruction amplifies shifting the weight to the left side during transition which is usually misunderstood by most people. The weight is shifted across with the left shoulder going with it.
Swing guru, Kelvin Miyahira came up with the concept of a 'chi line' to help his followers rotate the tailbone away from the target during transition instead of thrusting the hips towards the target during transition. He may have a you-tube video on the subject.
The chi line is an imaginary line drawn from the target foot to the head.

I will try and work on this Anzac, I looked up his videos on YouTube.😁😎

[anzac]

I've been a fan of Kelvin's for over 10 years now. He certainly cleared up many misconceptions I had about the golf swing. His swing theories (influenced by Tiger's swing during the early 2000's) and witnessing it in action in Cam's technique, was a huge learning curve for me in understanding how the elite golfers swing works. Previously my concept about swing instruction was - those who know don't tell, those who tell don't know. It sounds a bit harsh but some of those who know have trouble articulating what they know and tend to use what I call golf language that has been created by journalists rather than by elite players who lend their name to instruction publications.
I am not familiar with SC instruction, it is not the reason I joined the forum. I am more interested in the level of expertise in Canada in general. I am not here to learn.
Back to Kelvin - his instruction articles were really directed at popular golf instruction which had reared its head gradually as golf moved from a sport to an industry. Teachers were using generic language that just wasn't getting the message across to golfers. It was way too simplistic. Kelvin encouraged the use of anatomical language on how the various parts of the body need to move for safety and for a successful shot.
I was sad to learn last year that he suffered a stroke and has retired from his quest. His work has really made an impact on golf instruction in general throughout the world.
Now about your post. It is important during the backswing to move the tail bone towards the left heel. This clears the right side and makes the left hip the door hinge of the hip turn. Greg Norman and Tom Watson described it as pulling the hip pocket back behind. The knee will point to the outside of the right foot with the foot pressure working away from the ball. This pressure continues away from the ball until well past impact. During the transition from backswing to downswing the right hip becomes the door hinge with the tailbone moving away from the target with the feeling of pulling the left glute around the right glute in an upwards direction. It is essential that the right elbow is driven towards the target at the same time that the left hip moves. This creates a force coupling (for rotation) and places he elbow ahead of the hands. Just make sure that the left hip and right elbow are the pull/push elements of the downswing with the right leg as the brace against swaying left. Get this right and you will play for Australia.
Have fun.

[kid_fullerene]

FWIW, while they both use "anatomical language" to varying degrees, I'd say that Shawn's approach to teaching golf is very different than Kelvin's. Shawn uses an external focus, task based approach rather than an internal focus, body part position approach.

Regarding Shawn's method of teaching, I suppose it's up to an individual, subjective assessment, but objectively speaking, when it comes to playing golf Shawn has broken par from both sides; and he can absolutely smack the snot out of a golf ball.

Besides Shawn, I'm also aware of others in Canada who have a high level of expertise, and are very talented and capable golfers.

Hi Cally -- Aloha WIG Friends across the many time zones ..

some great points here - and they're at the heart of so many discussions about the nature of trying to learn or explain golf to yourself ..

maybe a question of 'what's your gateway'? -

I've spent some time chasing some of Kelvin's stuff and am very sorry to learn of his health challenges - that's sad news and I hope he is able to continue to improve - golf is better with him actively engaged than not..

and of course, I'm fairly acquainted with the Chairman's teachings over the years.. although his most recent material I've yet to really dive into..

but the high level point I was stumbling around was a notion of some kind of internal 'Holy Grail' sort of golf swing process that one could learn and apply .. vs.getting a clear sense of intention on an external goal .. and achieving a 'resulting golf swing'..


My golf journey ultimately pulls in pieces of all these things and more .. as you've got to own your process and your swing..

I try to leave most of all that out these days, as it just isn't that important ..

I absolutely understand the importance of needing to get a sense of the anatomical - as it's all about the magic question .. 'is this right?' ..

there's a caveat to that question .. as it might be more clearly expressed as .. 'is this right for me?' .. There are a great many swings out there .. we've had some among us try to tackle all the various iterations and nuances .... suffice it to say, the differences aren't merely cosmetic or timing .. although golf swings can and do look different, and they can and do involve different timing ..

anyway .. does it involve gravity??

of course..

but did your turn make room for the gravity fall or does your gravity fall help generate your turn?

and having done so -

might it involve where in one's spine that one is effectively swinging around? (it might)

and might it also involve then, how the swing's energy is then felt in sequence in one's body? (it sure could)

and might all of that potentially fill a great many books, videos and 'swing keys' and so on trying to get it 'right'? (it seems to have)

I've put this up a few times and in a variety of forms - it intrigues me that it has come back around again in the 'where do I put my eyes' topic that recently came up -

that's also at the heart of this - at least in some swing types.

it's more than just surface level and resulting apparent 'styles' ..

and I'm just throwing this out there .. if a theorist or swing instructor (crackpot or not) has gotten very granular about specific descriptions of exactly where and how the weight is moving in one's body .. then it's likely they've nailed down one very specific swing type.. it might well work if you can match into it.. and there's a lot right with that if you can .. I never could sustain that .. but my athletic skills are fairly modest ..

it's not an accident that Homer Kelly identified something like 140+ swing types (and I suspect that number may be a bit low) each with their own various descriptions and 'keys' .

I guess do you have to learn them all to figure out which one(s) might work for you ?? That would seem to involve a lot of hours!

and a quick contrast as to why Shawn has so many analogies - also not an accident ..

they can't all work together .. it's not that you lack talent as a student, it's just that it's just not possible .. the analogies involve different ways of being able to sequence your swing..

anyway .. complicated.. and not really productive beyond the fact that there's more to this than meets the eye.

as always . thanks for your time if you've indulged me in reading this far.

all the best

k_f

[Schrodinger]

Hi Kid

From an old book I have ' The Secret Of Golf ' by George Peper he mentions Homer Kelley and I quote below:

"He reduced the swing to 24 components, three zones, twelve sections and 3 functions . His findings allowed for approximately 400 quadrillion different ways to hit a golf ball. "

So yes, 140+ swing types is a bit on the low side :-)

[Schrodinger]

Hi Anzac

What level of expertise in Canada are you searching for? Is it biomechanical and scientific expertise about the golf swing?

I am aware of some of Kelvin's theories on the golf swing such as his 'Spine Engine Theory' and 'Drive Hold' concepts . There are also some critical reviews of KM's theories which go into intricate detail (see links below).

http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/spinalmotion.htm

http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/HandRelease.htm#appendix

I tried to learn as much as I can about the biomechanics of the golf swing (still do it as a hobby) and have decided that I cannot replicate the biomechanics of pro-golfers and opted for Shawns external/target/task based focus philosophy. He bases his instruction on how to learn motor skills by scientifically proven methods researched by Dr Gabriele Wulf.

Once you've learned how to use external/task based focus ,there isn't really much left to learn about the golf swing apart from allowing your 'central nervous system' to automate all the positions for you (unique to your own body).

Here is a podcast by Dr Gabriele Wulf which explains SC's instruction philosophy - which you might find interesting or might not :-)

https://soundcloud.com/golf-science-lab/18-what-every-golfer-ought-to-know-about-focus-with-dr-gabriele-wulf

[anzac]

Well I haven't had any problems with Kelvin's swing theories and I play most days. I am also in my 70s.. My issue is my eye sight is deteriorating. Doesn't worry me,, I feel blessed to be able to play golf with freedom. Where I live we have a saying about the weather - beautiful one day, perfect the next. That is pretty much how it is. We may have two weeks of winter when the Woolies come out and that's it until next year.
I haven't read the attachments but thanks for the thought and effort. In my opinion we really don't fully understand how it all works until we can actually do it and it works. That has been my experience.

[Schrodinger]

Hi Cally

Just out of interest, which method worked best for you (was it Kelvins or Shawns)?

[Schrodinger]

I like this Marty video Cally (purely from a biomechanics perspective).

He is demonstrating something called a Drive-Hold hand release action (ie. stable wrists and club through impact for several inches with low ROC -rate of clubface closure).

Then he goes on to demonstrate different 'arm release' actions in the follow-through probably dependent on the individual.

[kid_fullerene]

Hi Kid

From an old book I have ' The Secret Of Golf ' by George Peper he mentions Homer Kelley and I quote below:

"He reduced the swing to 24 components, three zones, twelve sections and 3 functions . His findings allowed for approximately 400 quadrillion different ways to hit a golf ball. "

So yes, 140+ swing types is a bit on the low side :-)

Schrodinger -

Have no idea where I pulled the 140+ number from - but doesn't seem even like a rounding error if I'm up against a field of 400+Quadrillion..

I hope truly that we have an entire Universe of Golf to potentially have all those potential swings accounted for .. that and infinite time.. might be the only way to get it all sorted!

I also know that I've mentioned this before - but an easy, 'everyman' sort of approach to the same sort of concept is Larry Rinker's 3 cores - 3 swing types (which work out into many more subvariants.. but 3 seems pretty easy to get one's mind around!)

In some respects - Rinker gives an easy template to potentially decipher where on the 'Kelley Scale' one might potentially fall ..

cheers for now

k_f

[kid_fullerene]

Hi anzac,

As a fan of Kelvin, I'm sure you're aware of this, but I understand that Kelvin invented the Impact Snap Device. Shawn has a video on this device, but he does use it a little differently than what Kelvin advocates. I can see benefit in both ways of using this device, i.e., the way Kelvin demonstrates it, and the way Shawn demonstrates it. And FWIW, I actually have an Impact Snap Device, and I've used it both as Kelvin shows, and as Shawn shows.

Anyway, these videos might be of interest to you just as a comparison from Kelvin's to Shawn's take on it, more specifically how Shawn allows for pronation and supination with a full release to the target (the yellow ball wrapping around the forearm) rather than more of a stopping at the impact position like Kelvin demonstrates (the yellow ball touching the inside of the forearm) . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOil_baXtq4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HgwCEltLmQ

BTW, as you know, Kelvin uses "anatomical language," but you can also see how Shawn uses "anatomical language" along with analogies as he relates the release to different tasks, e.g., backhand in ping pong; slash of a sword. At any rate, just thought you might find this interesting!

Hi Cally

Greetings WIG Friends..

My guess is that a lot of this 'anatomical language' revolves around keeping a useful spine angle set at address through impact..

note the different ways to get it.. and I believe they vary by how one sees line (or intention to target) and where one might be swinging effectively around one's spine.

note how Shawn and WIG has you 'hinge at your hips' ..

yet I hear other swing instructors talk about 'knee flex' ..

seems like a sort of ridiculous semantical discussion at first - heck, maybe it is - but I believe that how one gets into a sort of resulting posture/setup is related to how one is both able to swing but also wired to swing.

cheers for now

k_f

[Ken Robie]

I think it's very important to understand that all of the multitude of different swing mechanics beliefs are only effective if the body has the physical ability and the mental understanding of how it moves itself. All of Shawn,s analogies are an attempt to strike a chord of familiararitty in the individual.

[anzac]

Hi Anzac

What level of expertise in Canada are you searching for? Is it biomechanical and scientific expertise about the golf swing?

I am aware of some of Kelvin's theories on the golf swing such as his 'Spine Engine Theory' and 'Drive Hold' concepts . There are also some critical reviews of KM's theories which go into intricate detail (see links below).

http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/spinalmotion.htm

http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/HandRelease.htm#appendix

I tried to learn as much as I can about the biomechanics of the golf swing (still do it as a hobby) and have decided that I cannot replicate the biomechanics of pro-golfers and opted for Shawns external/target/task based focus philosophy. He bases his instruction on how to learn motor skills by scientifically proven methods researched by Dr Gabriele Wulf.

Once you've learned how to use external/task based focus ,there isn't really much left to learn about the golf swing apart from allowing your 'central nervous system' to automate all the positions for you (unique to your own body).

Here is a podcast by Dr Gabriele Wulf which explains SC's instruction philosophy - which you might find interesting or might not :-)

https://soundcloud.com/golf-science-...-gabriele-wulf

G'day Schrodinger
i checked out both perfect golf swing reviews which I had read before. I put them in the category of interests in the golf industry endeavouring to discredit Kelvin. There would have been many swing instruction sites very unhappy with his articles. Kelvin has drawn attention to the fact that instruction in golf is antiquated compared to other sports and it's governing body/bodies (PGA) has allowed it to happen. As far as I am concerned, Kelvin is the man.
The golf industry should be estatic that somebody has finally articulated the elite golf swing for the rest of us and provided a road map to own one.

[Schrodinger]

Thanks for that link Cally as I've never read it before (quite an interesting article). It's definitely going to take many years to 100% confirm which micro moves (or permutations and combinations of them -if any) are generic and optimal in the golf swing. In the end,whatever micro moves are made, they have to transform into specific forces/torques via the hands/fingers on the grip of the club at specific moments to produce the optimal swing 'path/speed' for the intended stroke. Then of course, we get into the physics of the golf swing and how these forces/torques on the grip , clubshaft dynamics , create those optimal conditions (everything will need to fit for every possible different scenario).

Kelvins article did make an assumption that a bent left wrist will close the clubface as in Jamie Sadlowski's frame images, but I have read articles that claim the opposite,so who is correct? If Kelvin is wrong , will any micro move instruction that help create that condition (bent left wrist) to help close the clubface by impact end up being flawed golf instruction?

When I get into impact position with a flat left wrist , then palmar flex it (ie. bend it), the clubface looks open to the target line and ends up approaching more from the inside. So even though the clubface looks closed relative to the swing path in the early downswing, it becomes open as the clubface approaches impact (it's a counterintuitive change in geometry). For me to get that clubface back on its swing path and square by impact , I will need to supinate my left forearm 'more' (than if I had retained the flat left wrist rather than a bent one).

I suspect only trial and error will provide us with the truth , but possibly not in my lifetime :-)

[kid_fullerene]

[QUOTE=Cally;n12994]For anyone like me who has been following this thread and may have had some basic awareness of Kelvin and his approach to teaching the golf swing, but would like to know more about it, I thought I would include a link to one of Kelvin's articles entitled "Micro Moves of Elite Golf Swings."

http://kelvinmiyahiragolf-articles.c...te-golf-swings

From what I understand after reading this article, Kelvin uses high speed cameras to capture split-second positions in the golf swings of "elite golfers" and compares these "micro moves" to the split-second positions in what he calls a "dysfunctional swing."

Each person can decide for themselves if analyzing the "micro moves" of "elite golfers" is helpful to them or not, but I found this part of Kelvin's article to be very interesting . . .

"Micro moves are performed by the elite golfers most likely without their knowledge. They just swing that way. I’m sure Jamie Sadlowski can’t tell you which of the micro moves he uses. Nor could Tiger, Bubba, Rory, Camilo or Alvaro. But these moves are there in the most athletic and powerful swings."

My guess is "elite golfers" are much more focused on the target with the type of shot they are doing rather than split-second positions in their swing, and the "micro moves" that we can see via high speed cameras just happen as a result.

That said, there are probably only a handful of people on the planet who are what I would describe as "elite golfers;" and I suppose most of the rest of us recreational golfers should probably resign ourselves to the fact that we will never swing like a PGA tour pro.[/QUOTE]


Hi Cally

I grabbed a couple phrases in your post to try and react to - not that it needs any -

I wanted to share a writer who tracks the current level of competition for those trying to live their dreams and qualify for Elite Golf Events around the world .. https://twitter.com/acaseofthegolf1?lang=en

Monday Q - shows the level of play just to GET IN at the Elite Levels let alone try to stay there..

personally I'm OK with whatever paths one needs to take to try and get better (assuming you're not hurting yourself or somebody else) ultimately you own the swing and the choices..

I know that I'm not athlete enough to really be able to hope to perform 'micro moves' to improve my swing .. but I don't rule out the fact that there are people who can ..

I also know that the Human Mind in terms of athletic activity - at least for most of us, works in pictures.. we likely will need to have a specific target and focus of what shot or action pattern we're going to need to be able to have a hope of achieving it..

The necessary forms of athletic calculus to make it happen will likely happen - so much of the stuff we all experience as negative outcome can be taken right back to a failure to stay focused and doing other stuff instead..

I wish I had $$$ for every time I looked at the trouble spot and hit right into it. on the golf course..

one of the great statements about Ben Hogan was that he had it 'up there' .. meaning his head .. and that was the source of his 'secret'..

that could well be - and at very least .. it's worth looking there in addition to any hidden athletic secrets that one may or may not have a realistic hope of being able to achieve.

probably a good place to leave this for now..

cheers

k_f