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    kid_fullerene
    Senior Member

  • kid_fullerene
    replied
    Hi anzac

    appreciate you sharing your story - had you sort of pegged as a 'player' from what you've been contributing over the years. With where your swing is and the success you're having - I think any attempt I would make to have you break it down might be counterproductive.

    I would much rather have you out sending the ball 'far and sure' than thinking about Kelvin vs. Leadbetter or any of the others who are out there doing good work.

    even a Crackpot Swing Theorist (World's Leading) has to be willing to step back from the incredibly lucrative and personally satisfying swing theorizing once in a while..

    I'm confident that you will not seek other swing opinions and continue to enjoy the ownership of what you've built for yourself..

    I wish I had your game ..

    but I've got what I've got ..

    and while I walk a different path that involves a different sequence and resulting concepts.. I respect the considerable work and focus to build a high level game.

    I tip my increasingly threadbare & tattered golf cap to you, Sir..

    wishing you fairways and greens..

    k_f

    Leave a comment:

  • anzac
    Junior Member

  • anzac
    replied
    Hi k_f
    Well I have been playing golf for 50 years. Played my first comp at 24. Shot 78 six months later. Basketball was my passion and I was able to compete at national level. Throughout my golfing life I seemed to be around elite golfers from touring pros to good amateurs. At 60 years old I expected to score around par when I tried it up. What irked me was that I didn't know how my swing or elite golf swings worked. I read instruction books going back to the 1920's (my golf library is quite extensive). If I didn't have a particular book, a mate who was more obsessive than me about golf history had it in his library.
    It was when I joined another golf club and began playing with a father and son at my new club that I discovered Kelvin's articles. The father was a scratch player and the son was a golfing prodigy. The combination of watching Des and Cameron and reading Kelvin's words gave me an insight into the elite golf swing.
    The Contraposto thing was pure chance. I happened to see the word and googled it. One look and I recognised it as the transition move in an elite golf swing before the weight fully moved over to the target side.
    Where am I at now? I would like to think my swing is a 75 year old version of Cameron Smith's golf swing.

    Leave a comment:

  • kid_fullerene
    Senior Member

  • kid_fullerene
    commented on 's reply
    Hi anzac - appreciate you sharing that and did start researching the Contrapposto in art, which is fascinating. I'm also glad that Kelvin M has been a good 'guide star' for you in your journey. without putting you too much on the spot - are you able to share what method or swing concept were you working with (I'm assuming with some success) before finding Kelvin? Curious to get an idea of where you were vs. where you are.

    Cheers for Now

    k_f
  • anzac
    Junior Member

  • anzac
    replied
    Kelvin's articles may not be for everybody but I have found his method to be the easiest way to swing a golf club and the safest. Our bodies are designed to move this way when the spine/ribcage and pelvis rotates. There is nothing difficult in how elite swings function in fact the most difficult movement - the transition from backswing to downswing is one we do in our everyday life. The difference is we are at the top of the backswing when we do it. The movement I refer to is "contraposto". (Google "What is Contraposto in Art. Here's an Explanation of Classical Contraposto).
    During transition we should be resisting the return of the shoulders but driving the right elbow forward while moving into contraposto then thrusting the pelvis in the direction of the target. To feel this set of movements adopt the contraposto stance with the weight distributed as in the red and blue lines. Tilt the upper body forward and turn the trunk away from the target with the left arm aligned with the target and the right elbow inside the right hip. The final movement is to thrust the pelvis towards the target while clenching both glutes together.
    By practicing these movements and feeling an awareness of each segment, Kelvin's articles will become much easier to understand.

    Leave a comment:

  • Schrodinger
    Senior Member

  • Schrodinger
    commented on 's reply
    Thanks for that link Cally as I've never read it before (quite an interesting article). It's definitely going to take many years to 100% confirm which micro moves (or permutations and combinations of them -if any) are generic and optimal in the golf swing. In the end,whatever micro moves are made, they have to transform into specific forces/torques via the hands/fingers on the grip of the club at specific moments to produce the optimal swing 'path/speed' for the intended stroke. Then of course, we get into the physics of the golf swing and how these forces/torques on the grip , clubshaft dynamics , create those optimal conditions (everything will need to fit for every possible different scenario).

    Kelvins article did make an assumption that a bent left wrist will close the clubface as in Jamie Sadlowski's frame images, but I have read articles that claim the opposite,so who is correct? If Kelvin is wrong , will any micro move instruction that help create that condition (bent left wrist) to help close the clubface by impact end up being flawed golf instruction?

    When I get into impact position with a flat left wrist , then palmar flex it (ie. bend it), the clubface looks open to the target line and ends up approaching more from the inside. So even though the clubface looks closed relative to the swing path in the early downswing, it becomes open as the clubface approaches impact (it's a counterintuitive change in geometry). For me to get that clubface back on its swing path and square by impact , I will need to supinate my left forearm 'more' (than if I had retained the flat left wrist rather than a bent one).

    I suspect only trial and error will provide us with the truth , but possibly not in my lifetime :-)
  • kid_fullerene
    Senior Member

  • kid_fullerene
    replied
    [QUOTE=Cally;n12994]For anyone like me who has been following this thread and may have had some basic awareness of Kelvin and his approach to teaching the golf swing, but would like to know more about it, I thought I would include a link to one of Kelvin's articles entitled "Micro Moves of Elite Golf Swings."

    http://kelvinmiyahiragolf-articles.c...te-golf-swings

    From what I understand after reading this article, Kelvin uses high speed cameras to capture split-second positions in the golf swings of "elite golfers" and compares these "micro moves" to the split-second positions in what he calls a "dysfunctional swing."

    Each person can decide for themselves if analyzing the "micro moves" of "elite golfers" is helpful to them or not, but I found this part of Kelvin's article to be very interesting . . .

    "Micro moves are performed by the elite golfers most likely without their knowledge. They just swing that way. I’m sure Jamie Sadlowski can’t tell you which of the micro moves he uses. Nor could Tiger, Bubba, Rory, Camilo or Alvaro. But these moves are there in the most athletic and powerful swings."

    My guess is "elite golfers" are much more focused on the target with the type of shot they are doing rather than split-second positions in their swing, and the "micro moves" that we can see via high speed cameras just happen as a result.

    That said, there are probably only a handful of people on the planet who are what I would describe as "elite golfers;" and I suppose most of the rest of us recreational golfers should probably resign ourselves to the fact that we will never swing like a PGA tour pro.[/QUOTE]


    Hi Cally

    I grabbed a couple phrases in your post to try and react to - not that it needs any -

    I wanted to share a writer who tracks the current level of competition for those trying to live their dreams and qualify for Elite Golf Events around the world .. https://twitter.com/acaseofthegolf1?lang=en

    Monday Q - shows the level of play just to GET IN at the Elite Levels let alone try to stay there..

    personally I'm OK with whatever paths one needs to take to try and get better (assuming you're not hurting yourself or somebody else) ultimately you own the swing and the choices..

    I know that I'm not athlete enough to really be able to hope to perform 'micro moves' to improve my swing .. but I don't rule out the fact that there are people who can ..

    I also know that the Human Mind in terms of athletic activity - at least for most of us, works in pictures.. we likely will need to have a specific target and focus of what shot or action pattern we're going to need to be able to have a hope of achieving it..

    The necessary forms of athletic calculus to make it happen will likely happen - so much of the stuff we all experience as negative outcome can be taken right back to a failure to stay focused and doing other stuff instead..

    I wish I had $$$ for every time I looked at the trouble spot and hit right into it. on the golf course..

    one of the great statements about Ben Hogan was that he had it 'up there' .. meaning his head .. and that was the source of his 'secret'..

    that could well be - and at very least .. it's worth looking there in addition to any hidden athletic secrets that one may or may not have a realistic hope of being able to achieve.

    probably a good place to leave this for now..

    cheers

    k_f

    ​​​​​​​

    Leave a comment:

  • anzac
    Junior Member

  • anzac
    replied
    Originally posted by Schrodinger View Post
    Hi Anzac

    What level of expertise in Canada are you searching for? Is it biomechanical and scientific expertise about the golf swing?

    I am aware of some of Kelvin's theories on the golf swing such as his 'Spine Engine Theory' and 'Drive Hold' concepts . There are also some critical reviews of KM's theories which go into intricate detail (see links below).

    http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/spinalmotion.htm

    http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/Ha...e.htm#appendix

    I tried to learn as much as I can about the biomechanics of the golf swing (still do it as a hobby) and have decided that I cannot replicate the biomechanics of pro-golfers and opted for Shawns external/target/task based focus philosophy. He bases his instruction on how to learn motor skills by scientifically proven methods researched by Dr Gabriele Wulf.

    Once you've learned how to use external/task based focus ,there isn't really much left to learn about the golf swing apart from allowing your 'central nervous system' to automate all the positions for you (unique to your own body).

    Here is a podcast by Dr Gabriele Wulf which explains SC's instruction philosophy - which you might find interesting or might not :-)

    https://soundcloud.com/golf-science-...-gabriele-wulf
    G'day Schrodinger
    i checked out both perfect golf swing reviews which I had read before. I put them in the category of interests in the golf industry endeavouring to discredit Kelvin. There would have been many swing instruction sites very unhappy with his articles. Kelvin has drawn attention to the fact that instruction in golf is antiquated compared to other sports and it's governing body/bodies (PGA) has allowed it to happen. As far as I am concerned, Kelvin is the man.
    The golf industry should be estatic that somebody has finally articulated the elite golf swing for the rest of us and provided a road map to own one.

    Leave a comment:

  • Schrodinger
    Senior Member

  • Schrodinger
    commented on 's reply
    I like this Marty video Cally (purely from a biomechanics perspective).

    He is demonstrating something called a Drive-Hold hand release action (ie. stable wrists and club through impact for several inches with low ROC -rate of clubface closure).

    Then he goes on to demonstrate different 'arm release' actions in the follow-through probably dependent on the individual.
  • Ken Robie
    Senior Member

  • Ken Robie
    replied
    I think it's very important to understand that all of the multitude of different swing mechanics beliefs are only effective if the body has the physical ability and the mental understanding of how it moves itself. All of Shawn,s analogies are an attempt to strike a chord of familiararitty in the individual.

    Leave a comment:

  • Schrodinger
    Senior Member

  • Schrodinger
    commented on 's reply
    Hi Cally

    Just out of interest, which method worked best for you (was it Kelvins or Shawns)?
  • kid_fullerene
    Senior Member

  • kid_fullerene
    replied
    Originally posted by Cally
    Hi anzac,

    As a fan of Kelvin, I'm sure you're aware of this, but I understand that Kelvin invented the Impact Snap Device. Shawn has a video on this device, but he does use it a little differently than what Kelvin advocates. I can see benefit in both ways of using this device, i.e., the way Kelvin demonstrates it, and the way Shawn demonstrates it. And FWIW, I actually have an Impact Snap Device, and I've used it both as Kelvin shows, and as Shawn shows.

    Anyway, these videos might be of interest to you just as a comparison from Kelvin's to Shawn's take on it, more specifically how Shawn allows for pronation and supination with a full release to the target (the yellow ball wrapping around the forearm) rather than more of a stopping at the impact position like Kelvin demonstrates (the yellow ball touching the inside of the forearm) . . .

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOil_baXtq4

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HgwCEltLmQ

    BTW, as you know, Kelvin uses "anatomical language," but you can also see how Shawn uses "anatomical language" along with analogies as he relates the release to different tasks, e.g., backhand in ping pong; slash of a sword. At any rate, just thought you might find this interesting!
    Hi Cally

    Greetings WIG Friends..

    My guess is that a lot of this 'anatomical language' revolves around keeping a useful spine angle set at address through impact..

    note the different ways to get it.. and I believe they vary by how one sees line (or intention to target) and where one might be swinging effectively around one's spine.

    note how Shawn and WIG has you 'hinge at your hips' ..

    yet I hear other swing instructors talk about 'knee flex' ..

    seems like a sort of ridiculous semantical discussion at first - heck, maybe it is - but I believe that how one gets into a sort of resulting posture/setup is related to how one is both able to swing but also wired to swing.

    cheers for now

    k_f

    Leave a comment:

  • kid_fullerene
    Senior Member

  • kid_fullerene
    replied
    Originally posted by Schrodinger View Post
    Hi Kid

    From an old book I have ' The Secret Of Golf ' by George Peper he mentions Homer Kelley and I quote below:

    "He reduced the swing to 24 components, three zones, twelve sections and 3 functions . His findings allowed for approximately 400 quadrillion different ways to hit a golf ball. "

    So yes, 140+ swing types is a bit on the low side :-)
    Schrodinger -

    Have no idea where I pulled the 140+ number from - but doesn't seem even like a rounding error if I'm up against a field of 400+Quadrillion..

    I hope truly that we have an entire Universe of Golf to potentially have all those potential swings accounted for .. that and infinite time.. might be the only way to get it all sorted!

    I also know that I've mentioned this before - but an easy, 'everyman' sort of approach to the same sort of concept is Larry Rinker's 3 cores - 3 swing types (which work out into many more subvariants.. but 3 seems pretty easy to get one's mind around!)

    In some respects - Rinker gives an easy template to potentially decipher where on the 'Kelley Scale' one might potentially fall ..

    cheers for now

    k_f

    Leave a comment:

  • anzac
    Junior Member

  • anzac
    replied
    Well I haven't had any problems with Kelvin's swing theories and I play most days. I am also in my 70s.. My issue is my eye sight is deteriorating. Doesn't worry me,, I feel blessed to be able to play golf with freedom. Where I live we have a saying about the weather - beautiful one day, perfect the next. That is pretty much how it is. We may have two weeks of winter when the Woolies come out and that's it until next year.
    I haven't read the attachments but thanks for the thought and effort. In my opinion we really don't fully understand how it all works until we can actually do it and it works. That has been my experience.

    Leave a comment:

  • Schrodinger
    Senior Member

  • Schrodinger
    commented on 's reply
    Hi Kid

    From an old book I have ' The Secret Of Golf ' by George Peper he mentions Homer Kelley and I quote below:

    "He reduced the swing to 24 components, three zones, twelve sections and 3 functions . His findings allowed for approximately 400 quadrillion different ways to hit a golf ball. "

    So yes, 140+ swing types is a bit on the low side :-)
  • Schrodinger
    Senior Member

  • Schrodinger
    replied
    Hi Anzac

    What level of expertise in Canada are you searching for? Is it biomechanical and scientific expertise about the golf swing?

    I am aware of some of Kelvin's theories on the golf swing such as his 'Spine Engine Theory' and 'Drive Hold' concepts . There are also some critical reviews of KM's theories which go into intricate detail (see links below).

    http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/spinalmotion.htm

    http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/Ha...e.htm#appendix

    I tried to learn as much as I can about the biomechanics of the golf swing (still do it as a hobby) and have decided that I cannot replicate the biomechanics of pro-golfers and opted for Shawns external/target/task based focus philosophy. He bases his instruction on how to learn motor skills by scientifically proven methods researched by Dr Gabriele Wulf.

    Once you've learned how to use external/task based focus ,there isn't really much left to learn about the golf swing apart from allowing your 'central nervous system' to automate all the positions for you (unique to your own body).

    Here is a podcast by Dr Gabriele Wulf which explains SC's instruction philosophy - which you might find interesting or might not :-)

    https://soundcloud.com/golf-science-...-gabriele-wulf

    Leave a comment:

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