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An old dude explains, how he swings fast with low effort

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  • #31
    Hi Ken

    here's Google's 1 second answer

    Height 5′ 9″, Weight 146 lbs
    Image result for ben hogan height weight​​

    and c/o GolfWrx also grabbed by Google

    On page 124 of "Ben Hogan's Five Lessons", Ben Hogan states that his driver length is 43 inches, 2-iron is 38.5 inches, 5-iron is 37 inches and his wedge is 34.5 inches.Dec 31, 2007Ben Hogan's five iron length - 37 inches - Instruction & Academy ...

    http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/...gth-37-inches/

    and a couple of almost relevant articles..

    remember he worked as a legit club Pro and did a lot of work on his own clubs, and later was absolutely feared by the club makers and techs - his eye was demanding and his awareness of what could be done was substantial

    https://www.golfdigest.com/story/how...t-wasnt-pretty on fitting: https://www.golfdigest.com/story/ben...et-clubfitting

    I'll try and find the article - but the gist of it was that his clubs were set up to be very stiff, heavy, flat and (maybe??) a bit shut.. which would be just the ticket to playing the ball from a sort of fade stance and ball position..and working rotationally through the ball (swinging left ) but working a bit right.. his intention, optics and setup would be pretty much a lock.. There are true subject matter experts out there whose knowledge and information on this literally dwarf mine..

    but think about it..

    what he could do is align a bit right.. work a bit left ..but optically put the ball more or less on a straight line.. everything was Center Right.. all day long..effectively taking 'the left side of the golf course out of play'

    a perfect cure to a man who fought a hard hook throughout his playing career.

    contrast that - with most of us..

    basically fighting a hard cut ..

    then think about why.. 'why'?

    why indeed.. most of us are 'ball focused' and working the line that the ball sits on .. doing that is almost a certainty of hitting a slice of some sort ..or a ropey pull if you can make that work..

    there are some other thoughts around the whole 'line the ball sits on' and it's 'focus' ..

    some might say its weakness..I might contend that it's something to do with optics.. and intention within how we process what we see..

    but those are thorny topics and I'm not really up for batting that around right now..

    cheers

    k_f
    from the hidden Ravine below 13th at CN G&CC
    tu nunquam hic

    Secret Swing Tech c/o Pigaman @ Crackpot Labs

    wisdomingolf.com/index.php?option=com_ku...&id=47972&Itemid=225

    let energy instead of style define you.

    Proud Member 'Quote Yourself Club'

    Comment


    • Ken Robie
      Ken Robie commented
      Editing a comment
      Kid thanks for the quick info: update. My question is in regards to different players swing path as it relates to ones posture. So my next question is how tall and heavy is Shawn and what is the length of his driver? You can probably see where I am going with this as it relates to the previous discussions above.

  • #32
    Originally posted by Gmonkey View Post
    Cally very good simple description. Love it.

    Have any of you good people got a video of Shawn describing the open face at forward shaft lean? I would like to hear his description of this after having read this thread.

    So if i have understood you Cally the closed face is an alternative to rotation to combat the open face of forwards shaft lean.
    Hi Gmonkey,

    Yes, with the closed clubface at static address or the strong grip you can swing through the ball without having to consciously do anything to square the clubface through impact.

    While he talks about this in many videos, this classic that Shawn did is the one that helped me first understand the dynamic of arriving at impact with the hands leading, and the resulting forward shaft lean with a dynamically square clubface . . .



    And Shawn hasn't changed his tune on this over the years . . . here's a very recent video where he talks about this dynamic in the golf swing (starting just before the 2:00 mark) . . .

    Comment


    • #33
      Cally - now that we've sort of discussed/exhausted the various hand release actions, which action do think Shawn mirrors the closest?

      PS. Looking at the slow motion videos (especially the top view) , I think he has a full-roll release action. Meaning he doesn't roll his left forearm independently of his upper arm through impact . He is rotating his whole left arm in conjunction with his pivot (when he swings righty of course).
      Last edited by Schrodinger; 03-19-2018, 06:52 PM.

      Comment


      • Cally
        Cally commented
        Editing a comment
        While I do know that Shawn's release is not a manipulated type of release of any kind, I really don't know which category to place it in or which action it mirrors the closest. And I hate to guess as I don't want to get it wrong.

        Kid loaned me his 'Field Guide to Recognizing Golf Swings in the Wild .. 2nd Edition' which he authored, but I returned it to him last year so I don't have that resource available right now as a handy reference. Kid, can you help out here with Schrodinger's question?

    • #34
      Cally
      Cally commented on Schrodinger's reply
      2 hours ago
      While I do know that Shawn's release is not a manipulated type of release of any kind, I really don't know which category to place it in or which action it mirrors the closest. And I hate to guess as I don't want to get it wrong.

      Kid loaned me his 'Field Guide to Recognizing Golf Swings in the Wild .. 2nd Edition' which he authored, but I returned it to him last year so I don't have that resource available right now as a handy reference. Kid, can you help out here with Schrodinger's question?


      Hi Cally --

      got my old tattered copy of the 'Field Guide' right here .. have to get it back to you, it's priceless in figuring this stuff out.. (OK it isn't ..but I had to try to get it out with a straight face)

      let's step back and literally 'throw' some things at this WIG question in terms of a release. I'll get there .. give me just a second and I'll start with something that is more or less its opposite .. which is a deliberate release of the wrists in arms/hands oriented swing.

      this exists and is sometimes referred to as a sort of 'chop' swing.

      conceive of it .. as a sense of leading the swing with a deliberate unhinging of the wrists first .. and in a swing that would seem like it's working an axe more or less directly down in a point (at least with an iron) between the golfer's feet.

      making that deliberate move .. will more or less 'levitate' the body and allow it to be 'released' and turned in rotation with the 'down the line' swing of the club.

      so it's an arms swing ..wrist release (deliberate) that in essence, automates the turn of the body.. one might hear it described in a lesson format as 'let the club release you..'

      let's contrast this with the WIG ..'throwing of the club' .. basically using the body rotation to send the club (with intention) with a sort of 'automatic snap' .. no real conscious sense of having to release the wrists ..

      they're sent a bit out .. and the out = an automatic down..

      as you've committed to a body timed swing .. you've effectively automated (or made automatic) the conversion of the heavy weight of the ACU into a snap of the wrists on their anatomical snuffboxes..

      so do the arms 'roll' ..

      kind of .. basically there is a release point in the lead shoulder .. assuming that one allows the club to be snapped (like if you were to throw it) the handle would effectively work in while the shoulder works a bit up and around.. (think about the kid on the swing analogy..Shawn is pushing a bit up .. the shoulder is going to rise with the extension of the legs)..


      anything that shows up in relation to the arms or rolling or what have you - is to my understanding and attempt at explanation .. basically sympathetic to the snap of the club out in relation to the target.. which will 'heavily overpower' the 'fashion show' ..

      that's to say .. by turning and committing the body.. you've taken the hands and arms out of it.. the rotation of the body ..which leads to the fall and heaviness of the ACU then times an acceleration and snap out and down..

      could one ascribe or describe what the hands and arms are doing in relation to that snap..??

      probably..

      but I'm not positive that in so doing it would be anything that you could ever really deliberately replicate..

      that's to say any time or effort you might put into it..would change the actual gravity/momentum acceleration and 'snap' that the WIG swing is seeking..

      the body in effect, releases the ACU.. vs. 'let the club release the body'

      seems a bit like an oversimplification ..

      probably is .. but there is a reason (probably several) that as golfers we're separated by the concepts and language that are describing similar things but in sort of a negative or reverse image..

      Gravity and Momentum are a fact of any balanced and harmonious golf swing .. but do you fall into a turn or turn into a fall?

      the forces are there ..but they act on you differently ..

      anyway .. I'll dig through some more of Shawn's stuff and see if I can get a picture of what his 'arms snapping' actually might be relative to a release type.. but my guess would be that he probably doesn't really have a clear image of it himself.. I think he would just see it as the most complete and efficient release of all the momentum at the target.. whatever happens to the arms with that ..happens.. and it might vary a bit for you ..

      cheers for now

      k_f





      just saw this - and within the first 10 minutes or so ..Shawn demonstrates a series of ideas that I've tried to speak to .. this is a pretty accessible and high level talk - basically an 'intro' to prospective students, showing his core concepts.



      make of it what you will - it helps me see his 'step shift clear fall' movement pattern..

      he also shows a couple of classic analogies .. the cutting grass and fishing rod..

      in terms of 'arm roll' ..

      I think it becomes a sort of 'rohrshach test' of how one perceives movement.. my bias is that I perceive joints being rotated by release.. so energy to club head..club head accelerates the relevant joints move in a sort of circle..

      now that's a complete circuit - so that should I choose to .. I could also move my arms in a rotating way .. a 'roll' as it were.. and accomplish something equivalent..

      now beyond the semantical .. one gets to efficacy .. is doing it 'deliberately' .. does that somehow work better..? or the same?

      is it merely just sort of a mental placeholder?

      I don't know .. but my speculation is that it has to be a more passive arm movement .. I'm not sure that a mental command to 'roll' ones arms could travel the neural pathway in time to work at the speeds of a golf swing..

      that's the update for now

      k_f

      Last edited by kid_fullerene; 03-20-2018, 03:32 AM. Reason: added Shawn's recent Toronto Golf Show talk - speaks of throwing the club and prediction
      from the hidden Ravine below 13th at CN G&CC
      tu nunquam hic

      Secret Swing Tech c/o Pigaman @ Crackpot Labs

      wisdomingolf.com/index.php?option=com_ku...&id=47972&Itemid=225

      let energy instead of style define you.

      Proud Member 'Quote Yourself Club'

      Comment


      • #35
        Hi Ken..

        Ken Robie
        Ken Robie commented on kid_fullerene's reply
        13 hours ago
        Kid thanks for the quick info: update. My question is in regards to different players swing path as it relates to ones posture. So my next question is how tall and heavy is Shawn and what is the length of his driver? You can probably see where I am going with this as it relates to the previous discussions above.


        Shawn is about 6'1" and has lost weight over the years with his diet and fitness regime.. I would guesstimate that he's about 190 right now. and his athletic background seems to include hockey and I recall him being a high level skier ..

        here's his current driver setup and fitting video (I think) .. Ping G400 and he mentions setup and shaft in the first few minutes.



        some stuff I would throw into the 'mix' of this thought pattern - is that our equipment options now in terms of shafts now available, adjustable oversize driver heads .. and just the machines that can provide some amazing metrics ..give even the most humble golfer insight that were simply not even imagined by golfers of Mr. Hogan's era - again . .. pretty much a reading from the Book of the Obvious, but that's what I do..

        some golf 'lore' is that there was believed to be a certain or 'optimal' height or build for higher level golfers and their swings.. that's to say a man at about 5'8" can accomplish a rotational swing within its discipline more readily than taller golfers..

        I'm not certain a study has ever been done - but there have been a lot of golfers about that size or so, who have had great careers and similar swings..

        so one of the potential premises of your observation that I just quoted might be .. does being a bit taller potentially dictate your sight lines, stance and core area that you might draw from and become 'manifest' in a golf swing that would/could be less rotary?

        I would say ..potentially yes.. I think that the length of your arms and legs, proportions and your sight lines could absolutely make a difference.. if you're built differently .. your context and challenges are also different..

        so while a bunch of touring pros all do similar things (and not all do..) it might be worth pulling tour average heights/weights and resulting swing type(s) .. and then look at the outliers..

        one thing that I think I know now - is that even as players climb the instructional ladders into Division I golf - their access to training information and programs is very different than what is offered to recreational golfers.. it's not like I travel in those circles .. but as I've had the odd conversation about how they learn and work on their stuff .. it's night and day from what I had exposure to .. and it should be - totally different animal!!

        hope that is of some help as a starting point for this next phase of the conversation..

        cheers

        k_f
        from the hidden Ravine below 13th at CN G&CC
        tu nunquam hic

        Secret Swing Tech c/o Pigaman @ Crackpot Labs

        wisdomingolf.com/index.php?option=com_ku...&id=47972&Itemid=225

        let energy instead of style define you.

        Proud Member 'Quote Yourself Club'

        Comment


        • #36
          Cally thanks so much for that video. This is indeed the logic behind the closed club face.

          I can see why Shawn does it and I can see why I dont do it. My grip is much weaker than Shawns.

          In the mechanics of what he does I can see exactly what he is talking about.

          When he demonstrates the week grip I dont think he puts his top hand (right hand in the true weak grip position).
          Secondly his hinge seems much more vertical than mine. It took me a few mins to work out why. My hinge sets the club at I dont know about a 45 degree angle and this is thinking of setting the club predominantely on the right hand snuff box. Shawn is setting on both snuff boxes and he is putting a big cup in his left hand. Its very weird because I have been convinced that i have been setting on both snuff boxes. Thats the feel but it doesnt get anywhere near as open a set as Shawn is demonstrating. So it must be true that im not setting on both snuff boxes. Which surprises me greatly.

          So if anyone cupped left hand like that then of course they would be wide open at top (club hanging down).

          My club face is neither open or hanging down at the top and my trackman numbers are good on impact face.

          However the logic is simple and maybe this is more consistent a move from Shawn. I have no idea until I try it but lets face it Shawn knows what he talks about.

          Anyway im pretty certain that it is a trade off between forearm rotation and wrist cup.

          I would also think that its unlikely that this would be a reason for most people to come into the ball with an open clubface because it would be so obvious that some sort of compensation would be thrown in to correct such a horrific open face through impact.

          Comment


          • #37
            Originally posted by Gmonkey View Post
            However the logic is simple and maybe this is more consistent a move from Shawn. I have no idea until I try it but lets face it Shawn knows what he talks about.
            Gmonkey,

            I just thought I would throw these two additional Shawn videos in here where he puts the strong grip or closed face idea in the context of an action to the target . . . basically the idea that if we come into impact with a dynamically open clubface then we can no longer release to the target and we have to do something to square the clubface, but if the clubface is dynamically square coming into impact then there aren't any compensations that are necessary on our part and we can continue to swing and release out to the target . . .





            Warning ahead of time . . . be prepared for some extra distance when you do it Shawn's way.

            Comment


            • Gmonkey
              Gmonkey commented
              Editing a comment
              cheers Cally. Ill have a go at this on the weekend. Thanks for posting.

          • #38
            Originally posted by kid_fullerene View Post
            Shawn is about 6'1" and has lost weight over the years with his diet and fitness regime.. I would guesstimate that he's about 190 right now.
            I know this post was directed to Ken, but for the record I'm 6'1" and about 182. But my build looks more like Henrik Stenson who is reportedly one inch taller than me and a little heavier (6'2" and 190). Anyway, to Kid's point, I'm sure body type factors into the way one swings a golf club.

            Comment


            • kid_fullerene
              kid_fullerene commented
              Editing a comment
              Hi Cally - my take is that all of these factors are weighted.... I still keep coming back to a notion that people have ways of observing and interacting with the world .. our brains 'hallucinate' a reality .. in that we are more than the some of our senses.. and we have ultimately to find a way to organize them and apply them usefully. In short, I could want to swing it like Hogan.. but if I've got a lifetime in of seeing the world in a way that won't allow me to easily access his sightlines and the corresponding movement patterns -- I'm likely out of luck. thanks for your continued patience with my periodic rambles.. hope your Spring is earlier and more fun than what mine appears to be thus far! k_f

            • Gary
              Gary commented
              Editing a comment
              Hi Cally,

              With your excellent knowledge of WIG and if you look like Henrik Stenson, all you need is to learn a few words in Swedish, then your opportunity to give lessons would be excellent. See how Henrik Stenson does it in the video below.😊

              Henrik Stenson Gives Swedish Lesson To Amateur American
              April 5, 2016
              https://youtu.be/VRRZDZtmA_M

            • Cally
              Cally commented
              Editing a comment
              Hi Gary,

              Ja . . . that's Yes in Swedish. How is that for a start?

              I've seen that video with Henrik before . . . I really like his sense of humor!

              BTW, I thought he was going to win at Bay Hill last weekend, but once again it slipped away from him in that tournament. It seemed that his putting was a little off in the final round.

          • #39
            Originally posted by kid_fullerene View Post
            Hi Cally - Hola WIG Friends..

            this conversation is at the true heart of what I think the 'great swing divide conversation' is all about.

            Montagues vs. Capulets

            Tasting Great vs. Less Filling

            Which was the Best Beatle?

            Coke vs. Diet Coke

            C'mon Kid, everybody knows the best Beatle was Pete Best...


            KH

            Comment


            • kid_fullerene
              kid_fullerene commented
              Editing a comment
              KH - they finally got Pete Best paid .. they used some tracks with his drumming on the Anthology Albums and gave him royalty checks.. think it might have been around Seven Figures.. if you take the time to search out the Decca Demo and some of the other stuff that he played on - you can see why at a Pro Level .. the Production/Management people decided they had to make a change.. time is $$ and you can hear that it would have taken substantial development time to get his skills up to the production speed they would need to put out content and tour. Music is a tough business - for them to achieve and then sustain success for generations is saying something! If you also want another bit of history .. John Lennon's original school band ..The Quarrymen, still exist .. they periodically play together to this day.. Parallels to golf ?? Make your time count for something and do it all your life.. cheers .. k_f

            • Gmonkey
              Gmonkey commented
              Editing a comment
              Just some random info my Parents house is over the road from where the quarry men first met. They live yards away from the Liverpool graveyard where Eleanor Rigby is buried. People from all over the world visit the church hall where they formed and the graveyard that Eleanor inspired the song.

          • #40

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