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  • #46
    Hi WIG friends..

    someplace at the bottom of this growing patch of 'thought weeds' that I'm watering and tending with great care - there is a bigger point.. and now, I'll dare you to find it.

    this is more or less a tangent or bit of a 'vamp' from Cally's most recent post on 'Where's the Sternum Notch' .. and I apologize for taking a clear and concise post and great set of examples and throw some stuff at it..

    it will likely not advance the conversation or concepts .. but then again...

    firstly ..a question .. as we can see that the sternum notch is related to the bottom of the swing .. ask yourself this .. how is it that it moves? We can see that in the WIG swing it is effectively in a state of rotation .. attached to?

    sort of a stupid question ..but think of the source and indulge me a moment more..

    so - not attempting to be a master of the rhetorical .. but anatomically it sits more or less midway between a golfer's shoulders.. so any movement or rotation would be due to the lateral movement or rotation of the torso?

    I'm hoping that is a 'yes' .. seems to work and fit most of the necessary criteria..

    so noodle this through .. how does this work in the swing sequence .. and then ask yourself another important question ..what moves first?

    and finally .. what sits anatomically above the shoulders? work all the way up..

    and then ask ..what part of the head that exists above the neck which is attached to the torso (which is turning) does the seeing?

    and then ask relative to the swing sequence, and the turning .. are the eyes doing the seeing always in the same place(s) and showing the same thing to the swinger?

    the question before us is..(and I realize that I'm on a WIG forum, talking about the WIG swing, with WIG Friends)

    is there only 1 sequence that exists in golf and therefore only 1 way to see it?

    are the schools of thought that seem to exist in what is now referred to as 'swing methods/theory' merely distinctions without difference? or is there something potentially more to this?

    what is the difference between a body timed swing and one that is potentially timed with the arms/hands..?

    and why are they such strange, dark magic to one another?

    the eyes see it (and I for one, believe that just like being blue, green,hazel, brown, grey colored) and I think are built to see it (as we see with our brains) perhaps in different ways .. and we approach a task with what we conceive, intend and are used to doing .. the millions of years of evolution get us here .. but is it necessarily all in exactly the same way?

    so why is the SN effectively 'behind the post' in the WIG swing .. ? It tells you a lot about how the weight is being converted to speed and where the weight is that split second before release and impact.

    compare that to say a swing from the Ernest Jones School of Thought .. and ITS various Masters..perhaps most prominently Manuel de la Torre' .. I'm not advocating that you do anything other than simply map out the sequence and compare it to WIG ..

    how is it different and why ?

    you can see that group is also capable of hitting a solid golf shot and yet it's clearly different ..

    now ask another question .. which I'll just sort of pin up there ..and probably will not get any kind of response to or consideration of ..but here we go..

    how much of that sort of swing exists currently in your iteration of the WIG swing - and is more or less something that you're either trying to find a way to work out of, integrate, or find a tip or 'magic move' to 'add that power'?

    can these various 'power options' peacefully coexist in 1 swing?

    are you some kind of 'outlier' because you can't get it to work?

    and finally .. are you defaulting to the ball or are you defaulting to a sort of optic or sequence that might be baked into you somehow?

    last bit of heresy for the morning ..

    is everybody potentially a rotational/rotary or body swinger as a dominant mode or predisposed to be so?

    and why or why not?

    probably a good place to leave this for now..

    cheers

    k_f
    from the hidden Ravine below 13th at CN G&CC
    tu nunquam hic

    Secret Swing Tech c/o Pigaman @ Crackpot Labs

    wisdomingolf.com/index.php?option=com_ku...&id=47972&Itemid=225

    let energy instead of style define you.

    Proud Member 'Quote Yourself Club'

    Comment


    • wooltie
      wooltie commented
      Editing a comment
      kid_ these are good things to think about. Once again, you said more than I ever could!

      My point in entering this entire discussion on a WIG forum, is this--

      There is an "optical piece" as you say to the golf swing. Some people need it, others don't.

      My argument is that people struggle with WIG in the areas of focus, where's the target, finding the mind's eye, yada yada because they:

      Are trying to use the optical piece and they don't even know it, and as a result the eyes go one way but swing goes another, or

      They aren't using the optical piece and as a result they have no idea how to plug into the swing.

      Shawn doesn't teach the optical piece in WIG because he relies upon the feel and motion of his body to tell him that he's swung 'to the target', and because his swing is body driven.

      My solution to everyone who is struggling is this: figure out the optical piece for yourself, and merge where your eyes see with where your body is swinging.

      You could be doing yourself a disservice by not using the optical piece, and depriving yourself of the 'millions of years of evolution' of using your eyes.

    • kid_fullerene
      kid_fullerene commented
      Editing a comment
      wooltie

      thanks for taking the time to gaze upon my meanderings and respond - for what it's worth I agree with what you're saying .. just like a swing sequence can be a bit unique but conforming to 'what must move first' and therefore 'what must release to maintain a harmony between ACU drop and body turn' .. I think that there is a sort of predominant way of responding to a sense of 'I need to aim this' .. so how do I acquire that ..and how do I put stuff into place to do it in a way that makes some sort of internal sense. There is a reason that Shawn can swing from both sides.. it's all body/turn driven .. he's not sweating how it has to look for it to work .. it's a very cool thing ..but it isn't necessarily available to every High Level Pro Golfer.. at least not with the proficiency of Shawn's swing.. last one I knew might have been Notah Begay at some level ..and I'm sure that there are others..

      what I find interesting is that people have a sort of definition of where their power comes from - sometimes it's flawed .. as it's coming from trying to 'hit the ball' the actual definitions of that are more complex than what they first appear.. and other times it's from an intuitive sense of what should be working ..but a sort of weird stew of additional techniques that actually are slowing their club head speed down..

      the relationship between clubhead speed and its release at the bottom .. and the body release of the relevant bits of anatomy in relation to drops/turns is pretty fascinating .. it doesn't just look different ..and it's not just style .. it's actually different ..

      but that I'll leave for another day .. no point in ruining everyone's fun ..

      I'm glad that you have found your own golf swing 'North Star' and appreciate you trying to share your experiences .. I hope your path will lead you to new discoveries and more enjoyable time on course!

      cheers

      k_f

  • #47
    Originally posted by kid_fullerene View Post
    so you're telling me that you can somehow hit STRAIGHT SHOTS off a STRAIGHT LINE where you align and work in parallels? how the heck does that happen? are you getting decent contact and proper yardages?
    Hi guys,

    Part of what was discussed in this thread was hitting "straight" shots. I just watched Shawn's latest video (see below) and he addressed this issue (as he has in the past) saying that with angular momentum, "For you to try and hit something straight out of an arc requires a manipulation of hold off and that's sapping juice."



    I don't mean to beat a dead horse on this issue, but I suppose there's not much else to do near the end of January when it's still too cold to go out and play!

    Comment


    • Cally
      Cally commented
      Editing a comment
      As I see it, it's not that "WIG is not designed to hit straight shots" but rather it's that angular momentum with a ball on an arc is not designed to or does not lend itself to hitting straight shots. In other words, "WIG" has nothing to do with it; this is just how a golf swing works.

      There's only a small fraction of a second where the path of the club and the clubface meet on the precise point of the arc where a straight appearing shot can be produced. And in my view, it's extremely difficult to intentionally try and produce that kind of a result when swinging a golf club.

    • wooltie
      wooltie commented
      Editing a comment
      What I am saying is this--one can hit shots that look straight. You can't tell whether they have a draw flavor or a fade flavor. They just look straight. And you swing down the straight line from ball to Target to do it.

      This approach differs from WIG, but that's beside the point. The point is that figuring out the optical piece of the golf swing could help improve one's ability to plug into the WIG swing and maintain focus. You don't need to change anything about WIG to incorporate the optical piece.

      I think some people probably need the optical piece-- I know I do, but wig doesn't cover it, which is why I claimed that's it's missing.

    • Cally
      Cally commented
      Editing a comment
      I didn't mean to stir things up, I just meant to highlight what Shawn said about this issue as I thought his latest video was timely in light of this thread.

      If you're able to hit straight shots on command I say good on you. For me that's too difficult to even attempt, and I find it much easier to either draw or fade the ball (although I'm better with a draw than I am with a fade).

      Anyway, that's about all I can say on this subject. I wish you well Wooltie!

  • #48
    Hi wooltie....
    I've pretty much stayed out of this discussion....

    Seems to me that this has boiled down to not much beyond "semantics"...

    However, use of the terms "voodoo" and "trapped in his own box" on Shawn's website to describe Shawn's approach seems a bit out of line.

    I, for one have grown weary of the debate.

    I too will go away quietly now....

    dude abides

    "OLD" Forum Participation

    Entry Date: 18-JAN-2011
    Posts: 1813
    Thank You: 1048

    "Be water, my friends"

    Comment


    • wooltie
      wooltie commented
      Editing a comment
      I am going to peace out as well. Be well everyone.

  • #49
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8ACufeOZTk

    Just thought id check out that guy Wooltie mentioned Mike Malaska.


    Its very interesting what he is saying. I think that at 1.01 he is not demonstrating it correctly. Its not how he actually does it but I get the principle. I wish people would not use crazy exaggerations to make their points. It would seem to help but it does not.

    On first glance though the first move id make with his swing thought is around and not down.

    Right at the start he swings level to demonstrate what not to do (which I do) and then swings with his turn down method on a more golfing plane. I wish he would have done his method on the same horizontal plane so I could see exactly what was going on.

    I can honestly say ive never hit a golf ball like that ever or heard anyone describe their swing like his 'tennis racket' action.

    Very interesting and im not going to knee jerk judge it. Im sceptical but open minded.

    be back when ive hit a few. Looks very easy to execute.

    Again I have to say that his examples must be exaggerated for effect because no swing paths look like that. Not even his in slow mo. But a better executed version of what he is saying wouldnt be too hard to put together.
    Last edited by Gmonkey; 3 weeks ago.

    Comment


    • #50
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xp0RXMfRzto

      I'll post this to explain why Im sceptical.

      The iron byron attack angle is very similar to the top player. The reason that it is not exactly the same is that they have simplified the 'wrist' on the machine. Could that machine possible be doing what he is suggesting. I dont think so.

      Anyway ill soon see.

      Comment


      • #51
        Hi WIG Friends..

        and here it seems that I've stumbled into the very end of this shindig ..just in time for the cleaning up after..

        well, I'll grab a couple of trashbags, some paper towels and see what I can do about some Windex and a broom .... I did get a chance to spend some quality time driving a fair distance there and back again yesterday ..and the 'windshield time' did not go completely to waste..

        maybe time to try and build a quick bridge between some of the varying points of view and discussion, tidy up a bit and perhaps like the rest of the crew, move on to more fertile discussion(s)..

        first the stipulation - probably best to start from a center of humility - where I can acknowledge once again that the Chairman, who if memory serves, was actually coined 'The Chairman' by yours truly so many years ago now - is a true and generous Gentleman who has devoted his professional life to improving the mindfulness and awareness of all of us of the importance of our many and varied contributions to the game - and gave us a literal forum to find other seekers of 'golf truth' in its many forms and share our thinking together. None of this would have happened or continue to happen without Shawn Clement and his hand-picked team assembled over the years.

        anything I try and share here - I always try and start with appropriate respect for the work that Shawn has done and continues to do - and for those of us who do the same on this board. Differences of thought and subsequent opinion can escalate - and perhaps, to some degree that is what has happened here. If so, calm will return, heads and hearts will cool and good will returns and will prevail as it always has.

        First and foremost - while we are all seekers of personal truth - the community exists to support one another and that must ultimately continue to be our priority and critical mission.

        stipulation complete..

        here's what I would offer as some sort of 'closing insight' .. and I think that at the risk of 'further semantics' I'll go at it this way..

        'it's all in the wrists'

        sort of like that line in 'Big Trouble in Little China' where Jack Burton says 'It's all in the reflexes' .. Kurt Russell at his best.. always loved that movie by John Carpenter.. wish they could find a way to continue that cinematic universe.. a boy can dream..

        OK .. so explanation -

        regardless of perception, sequence, optics, physics, schools of thought .. seems like the wrists have to unhinge at some point .. and it's a question of what predominant force you use and cues you tie together to make it work... or have it worked by gravity ..

        all of it is to find a spot in the arc where the wrists work outward ..or out and down..

        relative to the arc - well that's a 'body release' ..where the speed of the turn of your body slows down and the speed and anchor forces work out the shaft of the golf club and into the head..

        the WIG swing works the weight with lag ..characteristic of rotational swings .. (body turns first . club follows) heavy weight ..heavy, heavy, heavy (perception of the weight under the 'spell' of momentum ) until the wrists unhinge.. compression..

        contrast that ..regardless of your pre-existing notions of swing sequence and leaving optics out of it..

        with a swing where the wrists are unhinged EARLIER .. either a 'tipping action' like MIke Malaska.. or perhaps what is sometimes referred to as a 'chopping action' .. that seem to work a bit down and THEN turning the body together..

        are the 'semantics' important??

        to me, yes , very much so - they're critical and I mean absolutely essential, dead nuts gotta know the difference and why ..

        it's down to what is timing what ..

        again ..leaving any optics or potential pejoratives aside .. and I don't share this to insult anybody's intelligence or shake the very foundations of their golf awareness..and this is not a joke nor merely word play..

        are you using your body to time your swing?

        in WIG you are..

        are you using your downswing to time your body?

        then you might be using a different technique.

        either way wrists unhinge, stuff releases.. but they're a sort of negative image of one another .. the cues one would become mindful of and want to hone in a body timed swing .. plant..turn fall into the 'out of the way' ..

        probably not going to work with a swing with an early wrist unhinge... matter of fact.. it's going to put you into some kind of swing purgatory until some kind soul happens by and says..'what are you working on?'

        lastly ..

        and working past what is not an argument or argument's sake - as it's not anything approaching an argument .. and these are not semantics ..

        there are a lot of ways to get this done.. .. and they very much look and feel different ..

        and there is no real 'mixing and matching' or particularly easy way to combine elements from the body timed and downswing timed (let's stick with 'earlier unhinge' in WIG terms for now) golf swings..

        for the purposes of this discussion ..for this moment at least .. let's just assume that you need to decide that they won't work together in any kind of maintainable swing sequence.

        and .. not only if we did any even cursory analysis or 'tape breakdown' of the different golf swings ..do they look or work alike .. and yes, their relative optics are different..

        how do I know.. ??

        maybe in the midst of my many struggles and failures.. and seeking my own golf truth - I somehow figured it out..

        arms, body, turning, syncing, gravity falling, momentum ..all of them are just a sort of sequential container to allow the wrists to unhinge with some sort of intention .delivering clubhead speed into compressive energy to a small sphere built to translate it into a bit of initial ballistics towards where we want to send it..

        a working and reliable method might work best with how you're built or predisposed to see and work already..

        I guess that's it..

        my long narrative concludes..

        Spring is nearly here ..I hope that it finds all of you walking green fairways and finding the joy in the game that we all share.

        that's all I have for now.

        cheers

        k_f
        from the hidden Ravine below 13th at CN G&CC
        tu nunquam hic

        Secret Swing Tech c/o Pigaman @ Crackpot Labs

        wisdomingolf.com/index.php?option=com_ku...&id=47972&Itemid=225

        let energy instead of style define you.

        Proud Member 'Quote Yourself Club'

        Comment


        • #52
          Ok so I went to the range today to see what Wooltie was talking about. It was a very interesting afternoon. I hit 200 balls.

          Did I suddenly become like a tour pro nope. Anything of interest....yes.

          I'm just going to throw out some random observations for discussion.

          So firstly this was an alien intent to me. Not like my old OTT sway 12 hcp swing and not like my current 6hcp swing.

          I did the line of sight thing and yes my line according to Wooltie was way off. Left of target. So in the spirit of things I lined up a club to target and took my stance to match the line. When I removed the club I found it hard to remember the line so I picked out an point 6 foot infront and used that. Now I have no idea if the line of sight thing matters at all but I tried it out.

          The writs hinge action was the same as I'm using now so that was no big deal.

          Keeping the club far more in front than usual felt very strange. The intent of swinging around the hands was also strange.

          The idea is to keep the club in front and drop down with a kind of turning action. The kind you sometimes see at the initial decsent of a roller coaster.

          Then the idea is to keep the hand path nearer the body and let forces kick the club out during the swing.

          I found some profound differences with the intent and feel.

          At first the temptation to cast was strong. Fortunately I am aware of casting and could see what the temptation was. If I casted the shot would be pulled. I also found the temptation to swing at the ball. I just didn't trust the action to release like mine does.

          The relationship with the ground was very different. In my current swing there is always the temptation to hip thrust because you react against the swinging club from the ground. In this action there is no such temptation (only the hangover from usual intent). When I did it properly there was no temptation to hip thrust. Power does not seem to come from the ground.

          I was not as consistent as my usual swing. Which is understandable but that I put down to a mix of intent. I was still the best player on the range line and when I got it to work it was good and felt really good. I didn't see much difference in distance terms.

          I have noticed on overhead swing videos there is some curving of the swing path in the downswing that this did seem to explain better than my normal intent.

          I got more spin on the ball than usual. I could hop and stop the ball on a very small target green and that is not easy with range balls.

          Driving was mixed. Pulls if I casted and pushes if I tried to power from the ground.

          Played around with face orientation too see if that helped but messing with grip isn't nice. Got mixed results from this.

          I noticed that body cleared very naturally, automatically even but I didn't have as complete follow through as I normally have.

          Contact when done correctly was very good and to hit balls that way was very satisfying.

          All in all Ive tried many things that I can usually reject outright but this one did intrigue me. I noticed I only hit about ten balls with my usual swing.

          The jury is out for me. This did seem to explain a few things I struggle with.

          Would I have shot six over par doing it. No chance but I did well for a very new intent.

          That's my report guys. Make of it what you will. I remain open minded.

          Comment


          • wooltie
            wooltie commented
            Editing a comment
            I see a straight line, and I swing down and through the straight line. The straight line connects the ball and where I want the ball to land.

            Surely I could swing down a straight line pointed to the right of the pin, for example, and close the club face to draw the ball. Same thing to fade the ball (i.e. aim left and open the club face.)

            Yes, that differs from wig, but that's beside the point. The point is I've figured out the optical piece for me, and I can't find this piece in wig instruction because I don't think wig instruction includes an optical piece -- hence the emphasis on target focus and releasing the club 'out there'.

            But I think there is a place for the optical piece in wig.

        • #53
          Originally posted by kid_fullerene
          anybody care to have a 'go' at the concepts of ALPHA, BETA and GAMMA Torques in the golf swing?
          Here is what I found on the ALPHA, BETA and GAMMA Torques in the golf swing. Conceptually interesting but a bit challenging if I need to think about that during the swing... Also, very Malaska like.

          https://vimeo.com/121990372

          https://www.golfdigest.com/story/3-moves-to-smash-it

          Comment


          • #54
            Yes, it seems that both Malaska and Manzella are using some findings from Sasho Mckenzie analysis of PGA pro swings. It seems that many pros swing the clubshaft underplane relative to the left arm before they 'turn the corner' in their hub (hand) path to effect release. By doing the latter their lead wrist will palmar flex slightly but the overall effort to square the club by impact will be made easier because of the generation of a 'moment of force' (see the arrows in the image below). I think Malaska has taken it a bit further by saying one should feel as if the hands are being swung closer to the body through release/impact which would increase that clubshaft 'toppling over' moment of force that should make clubface squaring even easier.

            There is a video debunking the Malaska move plus other articles that cast doubt on Manzella too . In fact the verbal 'fist fights' with one side lambasting the other can become very unpleasant indeed.

            Pity that it ends up that way.

            Click image for larger version  Name:	MacKenzieArmAbductionPlane.jpg Views:	1 Size:	45.9 KB ID:	10847

            PS. None of the above will tell you 'How' to perform a golf swing (and 'why') , it just tells you what, where , when.

            Comment


            • #55
              Interesting video from Jim Flick and the young Malaska. Jim talks about vision, feel and rhythm. So WIG like.

              Comment


              • #56
                Ferko, it is an interesting video. My big take away idea is FEEL THE WEIGHT OF THE CLUB HEAD, and know what the club head feels like at different places in your swing. Flick wasn't advocating thinking about different positions of the golf swing. He just believes the golfer should be able to feel the weight of the club head throughout the golf swing.

                Comment


                • #57
                  Lots of great nuggets in this video Ferko! Thanks for sharing it!

                  However, one thing that stood out to me that I thought wasn't so good was the part where he showed controlling the clubface through impact to create different shots. For me it's easier to adjust the grip/clubface relationship at static setup for the shot intended and then allow the clubhead to release itself through impact. If we allow gravity to release the club for us (like Shawn says, the club releases me) then we have no need to try to control or manipulate the clubface through impact.

                  Anyone else have some thoughts on this?

                  Comment


                  • Schrodinger
                    Schrodinger commented
                    Editing a comment
                    There are some scientific articles that basically infer that it would be difficult to even attempt to try and manipulate the clubhead (at high swing speeds).

                    It takes 20 milliseconds for a non-voluntary (subconscious) thought to become an action plus there are shaft response delays to the forces applied by your hands on the grip (ie. to influence any clubhead movement).

                    Considering the above , once you've already created enough speed in the early forward swing, it would be extremely difficult to exert any influence on the clubhead in some controlled precise way. Basically , the outcome of your swing is decided in the slowest part of your forward swing so that what you intended to do actually has time to influence the clubhead (in the way you desire).
                    Last edited by Schrodinger; 3 days ago.

                • #58
                  Cally
                  Cally replied
                  2 minutes ago
                  Lots of great nuggets in this video Ferko! Thanks for sharing it!

                  However, one thing that stood out to me that I thought wasn't so good was the part where he showed controlling the clubface through impact to create different shots. For me it's easier to adjust the grip/clubface relationship at static setup for the shot intended and then allow the clubhead to release itself through impact. If we allow gravity to release the club for us (like Shawn says, the club releases me) then we have no need to try to control or manipulate the clubface through impact.

                  Anyone else have some thoughts on this?


                  Hi Cally - Hello WIG Friends everywhere..

                  oddly enough, I do.

                  and to piggyback on to Ron's observation that Mr. Flick is talking about having a distinct sense of the clubhead and swinging THAT ..as a concept taken from Ernest Jones (from his books of the same name)

                  and Cally's key distinction of 'adjust the grip/clubface relationship ...no need to (seemingly) manipulate the clubface through impact'

                  I would submit to his Honor, Judge of Gravity Court and the Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury ..

                  that these swing concepts are rooted in 2 (at least ) entirely different swing types. They do different things in different ways - their alignments, pressures, releases and targeting are different, and I mean VERY different and they are the Swing equivalent of Oil and Water.

                  simplest question - a sort of thought experiment - are you able to reconcile the 'control the clubface and swing that' with 'adjusting grip face relationship and letting gravity release it' and if so , how?

                  that's one of the keys to this - and not to bring up a sore subject - but it's what I believe Wooltie has been trying to understand and describe in his recent posts as well.

                  There are at least 2 very distinct schools of thought and teaching trees in this business of getting a repeating swing ... all of them have gravity and momentum working with them (as fall and rotation) but how G&M and when - are different ..

                  not necessarily better - and that's relative.. but different ..

                  look at about minute 20 in the video where Mr. Flick talks through what and how a golf shot requires ..compare that to how Shawn describes it .. they are distinctly and critically different..

                  there is an important bit of dialog that is trying to happen here ..

                  I say ..let it happen ..

                  why does Mr. Flick and Mr. Malaska advocate the use of hands/arms in the swing vs. Shawn's (as described by Cally) talk about the Body Release?

                  I'll leave one more big breadcrumb for your progress..

                  compare the teachings of Alex Morrison to Ernest Jones both were huge influences in subsequent schools of thought .. certainly in what was the first modern era of golf ... and grew and changed as modern equipment evolved..

                  see if you can trace what was shared with whom and how it has been handed down and expanded on over time.

                  and yes, I've done that work - pretty sure I have a fairly jargon free handle on it ..and if you look back over the scope of what I've tried to share over the past few years, you can likely see how my thinking has evolved and where I'm trying to go with it.

                  ultimately you as a player of the game have to understand what the real obstacle is to your potential progress in the great game - you have to figure out what camp you're really in,

                  do you see the target as a straight line and swing the club head?

                  do you see the body motion as an action pattern that you can aim into a target picture?

                  these things are a continuum .. and while they contain some things that are shared .. ultimately you as an athlete will have one mode that is more dominant than the other ..and it's my belief that it makes an enormous difference.

                  I'm willing to start a separate thread if there's actual interest ..if not .. this will be a little 'blip' in the overall conversations and I'll leave it where it has been and where I think it will likely remain..

                  cheers

                  k_f
                  from the hidden Ravine below 13th at CN G&CC
                  tu nunquam hic

                  Secret Swing Tech c/o Pigaman @ Crackpot Labs

                  wisdomingolf.com/index.php?option=com_ku...&id=47972&Itemid=225

                  let energy instead of style define you.

                  Proud Member 'Quote Yourself Club'

                  Comment


                  • Schrodinger
                    Schrodinger commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I think Flick was convinced that the body reacted to the swinging arms because approx 65% of clubhead speed can be achieved by just swinging the arms without a pivot.

                    I suspect its all about how your own body is able to synch up (ie .the kinetic chain). So for example , you might think you can get get more swing power by rotating your hips faster (ie. an active pivot instead of a Jim Flick reactive pivot). But that might not work if you are incapable of speeding up the other links in your kinetic chain.

                    Yes , you've got to know your limitations :-)

                • #59
                  Originally posted by kid_fullerene View Post
                  simplest question - a sort of thought experiment - are you able to reconcile the 'control the clubface and swing that' with 'adjusting grip face relationship and letting gravity release it' and if so , how?
                  Hi Kid,

                  Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

                  I have to first say that your understanding of all these things is way more advanced and deeper than where I am in my current understanding of these things.

                  That said, I don't see or understand how these two ways of swinging can be reconciled. As I see it, we are either trying to control the club in dynamic motion or we are giving up control to gravity and allowing the club to release on its own.

                  Now I'm not saying that the "control the clubface" method won't work or is no good at all, I'm just saying that in my mind this is much more difficult to do than adjusting the clubface (more open or more closed) at static address and then swing and release in the direction you want to start the ball. And it seems to me that a gravity based release is much more consistent and reliable than if I try to consciously control or manipulate the clubface more open or closed at a split second through impact to achieve a certain shot shape.

                  Anyway, if these two different methods can be reconciled I fail to see how. But in the end, I think the approach or method used largely comes down to what works best for each person.

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                  • #60
                    Cally
                    Cally replied
                    9 minutes ago
                    Originally posted by kid_fullerene View Post
                    simplest question - a sort of thought experiment - are you able to reconcile the 'control the clubface and swing that' with 'adjusting grip face relationship and letting gravity release it' and if so , how?


                    Hi Kid,

                    Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

                    I have to first say that your understanding of all these things is way more advanced and deeper than where I am in my current understanding of these things.

                    That said, I don't see or understand how these two ways of swinging can be reconciled. As I see it, we are either trying to control the club in dynamic motion or we are giving up control to gravity and allowing the club to release on its own.

                    Now I'm not saying that the "control the clubface" method won't work or is no good at all, I'm just saying that in my mind this is much more difficult to do than adjusting the clubface (more open or more closed) at static address and then swing and release in the direction you want to start the ball. And it seems to me that a gravity based release is much more consistent and reliable than if I try to consciously control or manipulate the clubface more open or closed at a split second through impact to achieve a certain shot shape.

                    Anyway, if these two different methods can be reconciled I fail to see how. But in the end, I think the approach or method used largely comes down to what works best for each person.


                    Hi Cally

                    thanks for the considered response - and I could not agree more .. these things are Yin and Yang.. Up and Down.. Martin & Lewis.. things that are just left apart.. although they are part of a bigger whole.

                    let's also dive into the 'works best' .. as that's a crucial pivot point for me .. perhaps for others on the board too bashful to contribute at this moment..

                    people sort of hallucinate their own reality .. or at least build an iteration or model of the world that they use to acquire new information and apply it to new things.. while I can or could show you an analogy or analogous movement patterns or concepts.. you would still likely put them together with what you do or know already..

                    in short - people tend to play to and build on their strengths ..

                    neither method or for that matter no method (as their are many more than 2 and many sub variants contained within..but none of that is really that important) is necessarily superior, but one will surely fit you or me or any golfer a bit better and give you more realistic prospects of superior results or maximizing what you could potentially do.

                    it's been my contention that trying to reshape someone who is working in a dominant mode or predisposition into trying to acquire the opposite.

                    That's to say it's not that you couldn't learn it .. but it might be a bit like having you try to play something one handed or a bit off balance or whatever .. you likely get the concept of being a bit challenged to work out of comfort zone.

                    and I appreciate you thinking of me as having advanced this bit of thinking .. I'd like to think I have ..and some days it seems so ..others, not so much.

                    think again about the nature of the well-intentioned 'swing tip' .. the magic for me ..might well be the tragic for you..

                    for what it's worth .. much of what you outlined .. clubface feel vs. dynamic posture is the crux of it all..

                    suffice it to say - while it's all there, and it's all real (or 'feel real' or whatever) it's rationalized to how you or anyone tends to self organize and go about one's business.

                    I would love to have a more rotational swing .. and on the range, I can do it.. on the course.. I can't..

                    think about that for a second..

                    it's because I think and aim in straight lines..

                    in order for me to do what I do .. I'm going to work back to the line .. that's something that I impose upon the action that follows..

                    the 'action first' and I'll just go over here and make that happen with my dynamic posture folks ..I envy you ..and that's a wonderful gift.

                    but in the words of the Josey Wales ..sometimes a man has got to know his limitations..

                    and so it goes..

                    here's the other bit of magic ..there are many more than just one glass (golf shoe) slipper out there ...

                    think of in a body dominant rotational swing like WIG ..just how many analogies and tasks Shawn demonstrates.. why is that ??

                    the rhetorical is that even within one dominant 'school' there are many variants ..

                    appreciate you helping this along.. might almost be time to start a new thread..

                    we'll see

                    cheers mi amigo

                    k_f
                    from the hidden Ravine below 13th at CN G&CC
                    tu nunquam hic

                    Secret Swing Tech c/o Pigaman @ Crackpot Labs

                    wisdomingolf.com/index.php?option=com_ku...&id=47972&Itemid=225

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