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Latest swing still inside. getting closer tho.

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  • Latest swing still inside. getting closer tho.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycq1noFKXPM



    I have been working on takeaway but still seem to take it inside. Arms out in front on this shot feel way out in front (but they are not).

    I standing up through the shot a bit.

    I do think that the actual way I am swinging is how the ball is meant to be struck.

    I just need some insights on path, takeaway and even impact to help me get the last breakthrough.

    Looking at Rory he strikes with the arms more in front and more 'left' at impact. I cant understand why this wouldnt be a pulled shot.

    Im really crushing it and you can see its a nice right to left draw into the middle of the fairway. However I can see faults.

    Im always open to any pointers please feel free to comment. Im especially interested in impact, slight early extention and anything perhaps counter intuitive I am missing.

    I see lots I am happy with. But If I changed my intent to look like Rory im pretty sure with my current understanding id pull left and Id like to know why?

    Close now. Some outstanding golf yesterday and Im feeling im closer than ever.

    Observations please gang.......

    If anyone has the means to slow motion the video pls do for me. Id be very thankful.

  • #2
    This is me and Rory at same point in swing. I am so much under plane !!!!

    Probably the reason I stand up through the shot. Unconscious CNS move to save it.

    On the plus side the actual strike and method of strike looks very similar.

    I think a lot would be solved if I just understood the plane issue more.

    His plane would feel as though I was heading left?????

    At the moment I feel as though im throwing the club to target but clearly im not getting the correct plane issue.

    This is an intent and understanding of outcome issue im sure of it.

    Any advice????????
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Gmonkey; 07-11-2018, 08:56 AM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Ok so I have been looking into this all day. Looking at my swing vs Rory's.

      I seem to be turning my shoulders and my hips in unison. Whilst Rory turns his shoulders on his backswing more independently from his hips.

      Is this contributing to my inside takeaway and standing through the shot?


      Comment


      • #4
        Regarding slow motion, you can now directly choose the speed in YouTube. It's available in the option menu while watching a video.

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi Gmonkey

          Imho, it's really very complicated comparing swings between golfers because their biomechanics can be so different . For instance :

          1. Rory's pelvic rotational speed is around 700 degrees per second while the average golfer is 550 degrees per second.
          2. Rory restricts his pelvis more than his upper torso in the backswing (like you've said in one of your posts above he has more pelvic/torso separation than you) but he doesn't have a high X-factor compared to PGA standards.
          3..Rory might have a different amount of secondary tilt angle in the downswing.
          4. Rory exhibits a 'hip spinning' action and therefore it gets in the way of his arms so he tends to get his elbow closer to his right hip to try and prevent blocked strikes.
          5. Rory stalls his pelvis rotation earlier in the downswing because of his quick pelvic rotational speed.
          6. Rory is able to complement his high pelvic rotational speed with high torso rotational speed from top of backswing to release - that's where he gets his high clubhead speed .
          7. The way he shifts weight pressure during his swing could be different dependent on unique biomechanical patterns (including balance and flexibility factors too).

          I haven't read one 'golf mechanics' article yet that can make a 100% guaranteed claim about overall cause and effect in the golf swing (just bits of it) so be careful about changing things because you can't be certain whether it will cause a 'fault' that 'drifts in' somewhere else (either directly or indirectly).

          Comment


          • #6
            In case you are in a trap to go to the inside and try desperately to do it differently, maybe another picture in your mind can be helpful
            Well, everybody knows, the club path is not straight, it is a curve.
            However, in the area between the feet the arc is quite straight.
            So, try to get a picture in your brain, that the clubhead leaves the ball at adress at a certain straight path and returns later on the very same.
            Why?
            This may help to get away from „body thinking“, trust your body/brain to find a perfect solution, to get the clubhead on track.

            We are geniuses to find solutions.....

            Comment


            • #7
              OK guys this one is perhaps going to be my best ever post. I mean one of the real insights and for some including me a game changer.

              Firstly Schrodinger although you are a very good poster you are wrong on this one. I respect how you have looked into they physical attributes of Rory's swing but lets be logical about things. Looking at a person perform a task is a very logical and helpful way of learning. If you are aware of what you are doing then comparisons are very useful. Swing forces work the same on Rory as they do you. Trust me. No swing is 100% the same on that we can agree.

              So in a direct comparison of me vs Rory I came up with what I thought was the key differences in my swing I posted and his I looked at.


              Then I broke it down to cause and effect. This is not simple and the hardest step.

              So key differences. 1. rotation different. 2. Backswing plane different 3. Downswing plane very different. 4. Standing up through impact 5. Earlier impact from me as he is more cleared through strike. 6. Inside connection with my standing saving the shot. 7. Different follow through path.


              Keep with me please.


              So first simply try and do what Rory is doing. Change plane and swing. Result = Pull left. Reason I cant swing on his plane and not hit left. Why????? Because I stand up through the strike.


              So why do I stand up through the strike? am I hitting at the ball? IS my focus wrong ?? Am I hip thrusting forward?? What is the effect and what is the cause???


              Ok so lets try and make that swing without standing up. Ahhhh that's strange with a heavy club and decent speed swing I CANT NOT STAND UP!!!!! Hmmmm that's interesting. The standing up is not an action it is a reaction!!!! OK so Ill keep disciplined on plane of Rory and make sure im 100% not swinging at the ball. result pull left!!!!! Again I rise through the strike and pull it left.


              Ok so now I have worked out that the standing is a force reaction to my swing and not a manipulation. My swing path error is my CNS working out that I need to be on that path in order to account for my standing through the hit. It has worked out that Rory's path with my swing force reaction will result in pull.

              Keep with me.

              So how the hell is Rory doing that. How do any of them do it. If the standing is a reaction to the swings ground forces then how the hell is he cheating nature. Is he swinging and not pushing up from the ground???? No he is pushing up from the ground. As is Jack and co. Jack has a massive push from the ground up and he does not stand up at the same time as me. But aha the both do stand up through the shot just after impact. So how the hell are they doing that.


              Well I have the answer. I reasoned it out.


              I will ask you a question. What do you feel is the counter balance point to the centripetal force in your swing. Im not sure how to describe this the counterweight or the part of your body you are swinging against. I'll give you a choice.

              1. Big muscles of the back.
              2. Rump or Ass or bottom.
              3. Left side
              4. head
              5. straight left leg.
              6. Arms
              8. Sternum
              9. None of the above.


              One of those 'anchors' allows you to collect the ball on the same plane as Rory and not stand up until after the strike whilst still swinging with ground forces.

              If you can tell me the 'anchor' or counterweight I was thinking of and then tell me the correct one then you have found one of the biggest secrets of golf. IMO the holy grail.

              Im not going to tell you which. Im happy to confirm your answers. Let me know your answers. It shocked me this one and has instantly stopped me standing
              the shot thus allowing me to achieve the correct plane and still hit a nice shot.










              Comment


              • Cally
                Cally commented
                Editing a comment
                Gmonkey,

                Apparently nobody wants to guess which choice, if any of the above, is the one that you have in mind.

                Why don't you indulge us and share with the class exactly what your shocking discovery is that "has instantly stopped (you) standing (up in) the shot" . . . ?

            • #8
              Hi Cally,

              Thanks for reading my posts and the only one to respond hahahaha.. .

              Ill tell you which one was my natural cns instinct. Choice 1. Back muscles.

              Ever seen a video where a golf pro sets up a golf ball on a baseball tee and demonstrates a swing on that flat plane?

              That was what I was doing. Counterweight or anchor in that example is your torso or back or backmuscles. whatever something behind and centre.

              If you swing on that anchor and I mean swing and not hit then the stand, early extention, hip thrust or whatever people have called it out in golf land is inevitable. You can make this work if you swing on an inside plane to compensate. As I said this is not done consciously this is a reaction to forces and the plane is a result of trial and error. A swing on the correct swing plane will result in a huge pull left.

              If you get what im talking about then make a swing with the swing anchor as all of the options I have mentioned on Rory's plane. You will still stand up through the swing. The forces are exactly the same but one will allow you to stand up after the ball is struck and take your hips open more at impact. Other choices will allow you to do something similar but will promote lack of balance and sway and all sorts of nasties.

              I was under the impression that you are a good player so I suspected and suspect the likes of you and costa can pass the test.

              I challenge Shawn himself to comment. I 100% know that he would pass and would probably cite the correct video in his vast library that deals with the exact thing im talking about.

              I told three people about this. Each time I gave them the answer and reasoning it went in one ear and out the other. I decided to give another mid handicap the story and the options and have him work it out for himself. He did and then understood. The only drawback is that he now thinks he worked it out himself and gave me no credit. hahhahaa human nature for you.

              Now tell me the correct anchor to the swing from ground up.





              Comment


              • Cally
                Cally commented
                Editing a comment
                I'm trying to envision what you're describing here with a swing anchor of the "torso or back or back muscles" . . . are you talking about what Shawn describes in getting "fully behind the ball" (torso / lead side latissimus dorsi muscle behind the hit so to speak) and more of a dominant lead side or backhand approach to the swing as in these videos for example?

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tI_TVN0E3Y

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPgYMmC9Kxs

              • Cally
                Cally commented
                Editing a comment
                As I've thought more about this Gmonkey, I'm really not clear about what you're trying to describe here with your torso or back or back muscles as a counterweight or anchor.

                As far as Shawn's swing, we know he has described the counterweight as the posterior which must remain protruded through the swing as the arms get catapulted or slung past you; and the feet and the head are the anchors to the swing.

                As far as your swing, as you acknowledged, the takeaway/backswing is too much inside which causes the arms to get stuck behind you. From there you really only have two options:

                One, you can reroute the ACU out an around in an attempt to get the arms in front of you. This option could result in a pull or slice, etcetera.

                Two, you can basically do what you did in your video and stand up/hip thrust/early extend in an effort to give your arms room, in which case you've lost your posture and posterior counterweight and your hip rotation has essentially stopped as your hips are basically square coming into impact rather than more open coming into impact. My guess with this option is your miss is a weak push and sometimes a heel strike.

                IMHO, you may want to think about what's going on with your lead leg in your takeaway/backswing. It looks to me that it protrudes more out toward the ball rather than rotating in behind the ball (see the :16 second mark). If my observation is correct, I suspect this is the primary reason/root cause for your too far inside takeaway/backswing which is ultimately compromising your entire downswing.

                That said, you will need to hear from others who are better and more experienced than I am if you want an expert opinion!

            • #9
              Originally posted by Gmonkey View Post
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycq1noFKXPM

              Looking at Rory he strikes with the arms more in front and more 'left' at impact. I cant understand why this wouldnt be a pulled shot.
              I think the reason Rory doesn't pull left might be explained in this video see 10:00 -11:35



              Last edited by Schrodinger; 07-14-2018, 06:50 AM.

              Comment


              • #10
                Cally. That is a very impressive reply. Because despite your concerns you know exactly what im talking about and you have answered correctly.

                Its funny because in your second post when you have thought a bit about what I have said you exactly answer my question and better than the options I gave. You did understand exactly but maybe modesty made you not confident. It is rare that you can get 100% on the same page with someone about golf but I feel we have achieved this. Your answer and opinion of my swing I agree with totally.

                You said '
                as the arms get catapulted or slung past you; and the feet and the head are the anchors to the swing.' That my friend and WIG friends is gold.

                The answer I was looking for was number 4. the head but you have fleshed it out a bit.

                The problem with thinking about the posterior/backside as the counterweight is that without understanding the anchor head (assuming the ground is always in any swing some sort of anchor) then you will spin out if you consider the ass as the counterweight without the heads anchor. So yes you have absolutely nailed the answer.

                My miss can be a push or straight pull. Yes if my CNS has not timed the rise(stand up through the strike). It is not a conscious stand up through the shot. I didn't even know I was doing it. Until I shot the video all I knew was that I could not hit a decent shot from the correct plane. Costa pointed out my plane and takeaway error but simply swinging on the correct plane will not work without understanding the forces at play.

                So now with the head as the anchor I can reach impact later (or earlier in the second pendulum depending how you describe the swing), clear more through the shot and most importantly use the rising power from the ground and conclusion of the swing after the ball has gone.

                With this knowledge I can easily see how the head provides the same anchor in an over arm throw and even in an under arm throw and 100% in a stone skip. This is what Hogan is trying to describe in his famous stone skip analogy.

                So I can now swing on plane, avoid standing through impact.

                As for feet and leg issues. I firmly believe they are a reaction and Im not sure but ill pretty much bet that the lead leg issue will be gone due to the fresh intent.

                I think you must be a very good golfer to answer as you have. I will video my swing again and we can see the profound difference this has made.

                Have you posted your swing Cally? Id like to see it. You clearly understand golf more than you let on.

                Shrode. Thanks for video. Ill look at it later.

                Cally I must say it is so so rare that I can get a concept across and debate it with such precision as we have in this thread. Im delighted at your reply.





                Comment


                • Cally
                  Cally commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Thanks Gmonkey!

                  No, I don't have any video of my swing. I fear if I made a video I'd be horrified by what I see and I would forget about golf and just play horseshoes and lawn darts.

                  That said, recently at the range a guy next to me said to me, "You're crushing that driver; and your hip turn is textbook." I was surprised by his assessment of my hip turn, but it was encouraging to hear. All I was thinking/feeling at the time was the posterior catapult effect. I have no idea what it looked like, but I guess it must have been okay if someone said my hip turn was "textbook."

                  Anyway, I hoped something I said in my comments is helpful to you!

                • Ken Robie
                  Ken Robie commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Gmonkey, I'll throw you a bone that you probably have looked past here. The body's reaction to the swings G- forces is not really directed toward the head or feet as an anchor but more of the body's recoil into a smaller profile (squat, crouch if you will) with it's CG moving back (away from the centripital tug on the body). Early extension is "usually" a direct result of the body trying to resist this pull vertically. Because of the pull against the body's higher CG.

                  Now to support this theory of mine go back to the very early days of Shawn giving us the analogy of the Mountain climber rescueing the climber bedlow him with the climbing rope. As the lower climber begins to swing back and forth across the cliff face the upper climber has to reposition his CG lower and behind away from the pull of the lower climbers force. The extreme golf swing is basicly the same????

              • #11
                Imho Gmonkey , it might be worth reviewing the 'Centripetal Pump' videos and get that 'Sam Snead' squat look (Rory has it in abundance).

                Comment


                • #12
                  Hi Ken,

                  You said..
                  Early extension is "usually" a direct result of the body trying to resist this pull vertically.

                  100% agreed Ken. I thought I was saying basically the exact same thing.

                  Ok so we can both agree what we consider the cause of early extention to be. Forces and CG effect of the swing. So now on to your advice.

                  Ok so thinking about what you have said and Shawns mountain climber analogy the climber holding the rope the guy at the top indeed feels more weight in the feet as he reacts against the climbers weight.

                  My lack of understanding with that analogy is that the climber holding the rope would not have to think about repositioning his Centre of gravity. He would just react to the weight. The weight would make him reposition his CG and feel more force to the ground. He doesnt have time to think about this or he would drop the rope. He just reacts. So why doesnt the golfer who early extends just react to the weight as the climber does and solve it themselves ????

                  Their must be more too it than that. IE an error of intent??

                  What you think??

                  I have just been looking at Shawns swings and trying to work out what you said about the mountain climber. I have a question?

                  Do you think Shawn is building swing force from the top of the downswing. Ie A gradual swing build up right from the top. This could make the body react differently from what Im doing.

                  Just to clarify. In my swing I am catching the fall of the club with a swing to target. When I catch the fall of the weight of the club then that is going to put a big force strain on the swing and I dont see a way around that. Only to try and achieve this after the ball has gone or perhaps a more gradual build up of force that the body doesnt so aggressivly react to. I suppose a catapult does not catch a fall. It must be a gradual build up of swing power. Ill try it.

                  I wonder if im getting to narrow. Perhaps a wider arc swing would lessen the severity.

                  Shorde I searched for centrifual pump video and cant find one from Shawn.

                  I have heard the term centrifiiugal pump but not really heard it explained.



                  Last edited by Gmonkey; 07-16-2018, 08:49 AM.

                  Comment


                  • Ken Robie
                    Ken Robie commented
                    Editing a comment
                    "G" What I think about "why" golfers tend to early extend so easily is their interpretation of don't let the body move off of it's center. And by that I mean by them trying not to move dynamically with the changing pull on their CG during the swing they essentially lock their CG in place preventing a "counter" reaction to the swings outer pull on it's "static" posture. The only place for them to go is straight up from their feet. As far as Shawn building swing force from the top, absolutely!. I believe the swing is actually modeled around body as a rubber band. I. e. as the ACU elevates to the top of the back swing the body becomes taller in the lower body through the extension of the trail leg. And so as the downswing is initiated by the squat returning into the lead side, it is literally stretching the ACU against the lowering CG. This action is reversed during contact. It is the ball on a string analogy in perfect harmony with the amount of effort needed for "x" amount of momentum to target.

                • #13
                  Originally posted by Gmonkey View Post
                  Hi Ken,

                  You said..
                  Early extension is "usually" a direct result of the body trying to resist this pull vertically.

                  100% agreed Ken. I thought I was saying basically the exact same thing.

                  Ok so we can both agree what we consider the cause of early extention to be. Forces and CG effect of the swing. So now on to your advice.

                  Ok so thinking about what you have said and Shawns mountain climber analogy the climber holding the rope the guy at the top indeed feels more weight in the feet as he reacts against the climbers weight.

                  My lack of understanding with that analogy is that the climber holding the rope would not have to think about repositioning his Centre of gravity. He would just react to the weight. The weight would make him reposition his CG and feel more force to the ground. He doesnt have time to think about this or he would drop the rope. He just reacts. So why doesnt the golfer who early extends just react and solve it themselves ????

                  Their must be more too it than that. IE an error of intent??

                  What you think??
                  Hi Gmonkey,

                  I'm not speaking for Ken, but this is what I think . . . yes it all has to do with an error of intent!

                  With the mountain climber analogy we know that the person on the ledge must feel the weight of the person below the ledge, and the body responds to the feel of the weight of the person below as they are swung back up and onto the ledge. The weight is felt and responded to until the person below is safely back up on the ledge. Starting at the 6:42 mark in this video for those who want to see it again . . .



                  Applying this to the golf swing, if the intent is to swing the club and release it out toward a target then you conserve the angular momentum with the weight of the lagging clubhead essentially staying behind your body until the clubhead strikes the ball (the ball is collected with forward shaft lean and released out there). If however your intent is to hit the ball on the ground in front of you then you lose the angular momentum, and release the lag early in which case the body rotation slows down or stops rotating altogether as you stand up in the shot (early extend) to allow the already released clubface to hit the ball. And if you release early like this then you can no longer feel the outward pull of momentum and rotational forces in the swing.

                  Also, think of the ball on a string analogy in relation to the mountain climber analogy. You feel the weight and the forces of gravity and momentum with the outward pull of the ball on the string. If your intent is to release the ball out there you will continue to feel the weight and momentum late into the swing, and into the follow through whereas if you release the ball on a string down at your feet the forces of gravity and momentum will be cancelled out basically midway through the swing.

                  So back to your point Gmonkey, yes, at its root, early extension has to do with an error of intent!

                  Comment


                  • #14
                    Originally posted by Gmonkey View Post
                    I have just been looking at Shawns swings and trying to work out what you said about the mountain climber. I have a question?

                    Do you think Shawn is building swing force from the top of the downswing. Ie A gradual swing build up right from the top. This could make the body react differently from what Im doing.

                    Just to clarify. In my swing I am catching the fall of the club with a swing to target. When I catch the fall of the weight of the club then that is going to put a big force strain on the swing and I dont see a way around that. Only to try and achieve this after the ball has gone or perhaps a more gradual build up of force that the body doesnt so aggressivly react to. I suppose a catapult does not catch a fall. It must be a gradual build up of swing power. Ill try it.

                    I wonder if im getting to narrow. Perhaps a wider arc swing would lessen the severity.

                    Shorde I searched for centrifual pump video and cant find one from Shawn.

                    I have heard the term centrifiiugal pump but not really heard it explained.
                    Gmonkey,

                    I just saw this edited/additional portion of your last post.

                    I do think it's a gradual building swing force. Too many people apply too much force, and they apply it way too soon. Think of the catapult . . . you wouldn't want to push on the arm of the catapult at start of the downswing as that would cause you to get ahead of the momentum and essentially cancel out the catapult effect of the counterweight . . .



                    As far as the centrifugal pump videos, Shawn shows this in many videos like Throwing the Club for example, but here's something that Gary put together that explains it, and also has some video examples for you . . .

                    https://wisdomingolf.vbulletin.net/b...trifugal-force

                    Comment


                    • Cally
                      Cally commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Gmonkey, I just noticed that Gary quoted you in his Blog above!

                  • #15
                    I see my quote. Yes I stand by all that. That is an accurate description of the forces but I notice I didnt try and explain the intent.

                    Ok so im going to hit a few shots by going back to ass as counterweight with the head as anchor and a gradual build up of swing power and end in front of the ball. Basically relocating my entire swing forward onto the front foot finish and catching the ball early on in the swing. If I can do that on plane then I'll know I have cracked it.

                    Whats at stake is pretty exciting because surely im close now.

                    I abandoned the ass as counterweight a while ago because I was spinning out of the shot. I think you can only use the ass as counterweight if you understand the heads role. I always thought of the head as set up on braced tilt but its more than that it is part of the reason you 'counterweight' doesnt get out of control.

                    Again thanks for imput fellas.

                    As you can see Im open to all your suggestions and wisdom. Thanks.

                    Comment

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