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Latest swing still inside. getting closer tho.

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  • Latest swing still inside. getting closer tho.

    I have been working on takeaway but still seem to take it inside. Arms out in front on this shot feel way out in front (but they are not).

    I standing up through the shot a bit.

    I do think that the actual way I am swinging is how the ball is meant to be struck.

    I just need some insights on path, takeaway and even impact to help me get the last breakthrough.

    Looking at Rory he strikes with the arms more in front and more 'left' at impact. I cant understand why this wouldnt be a pulled shot.

    Im really crushing it and you can see its a nice right to left draw into the middle of the fairway. However I can see faults.

    Im always open to any pointers please feel free to comment. Im especially interested in impact, slight early extention and anything perhaps counter intuitive I am missing.

    I see lots I am happy with. But If I changed my intent to look like Rory im pretty sure with my current understanding id pull left and Id like to know why?

    Close now. Some outstanding golf yesterday and Im feeling im closer than ever.

    Observations please gang.......

    If anyone has the means to slow motion the video pls do for me. Id be very thankful.

  • #2
    This is me and Rory at same point in swing. I am so much under plane !!!!

    Probably the reason I stand up through the shot. Unconscious CNS move to save it.

    On the plus side the actual strike and method of strike looks very similar.

    I think a lot would be solved if I just understood the plane issue more.

    His plane would feel as though I was heading left?????

    At the moment I feel as though im throwing the club to target but clearly im not getting the correct plane issue.

    This is an intent and understanding of outcome issue im sure of it.

    Any advice????????
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Gmonkey; 07-11-2018, 09:56 AM.


    • #3
      Ok so I have been looking into this all day. Looking at my swing vs Rory's.

      I seem to be turning my shoulders and my hips in unison. Whilst Rory turns his shoulders on his backswing more independently from his hips.

      Is this contributing to my inside takeaway and standing through the shot?


      • #4
        Hi Gmonkey

        Imho, it's really very complicated comparing swings between golfers because their biomechanics can be so different . For instance :

        1. Rory's pelvic rotational speed is around 700 degrees per second while the average golfer is 550 degrees per second.
        2. Rory restricts his pelvis more than his upper torso in the backswing (like you've said in one of your posts above he has more pelvic/torso separation than you) but he doesn't have a high X-factor compared to PGA standards.
        3..Rory might have a different amount of secondary tilt angle in the downswing.
        4. Rory exhibits a 'hip spinning' action and therefore it gets in the way of his arms so he tends to get his elbow closer to his right hip to try and prevent blocked strikes.
        5. Rory stalls his pelvis rotation earlier in the downswing because of his quick pelvic rotational speed.
        6. Rory is able to complement his high pelvic rotational speed with high torso rotational speed from top of backswing to release - that's where he gets his high clubhead speed .
        7. The way he shifts weight pressure during his swing could be different dependent on unique biomechanical patterns (including balance and flexibility factors too).

        I haven't read one 'golf mechanics' article yet that can make a 100% guaranteed claim about overall cause and effect in the golf swing (just bits of it) so be careful about changing things because you can't be certain whether it will cause a 'fault' that 'drifts in' somewhere else (either directly or indirectly).


        • #5
          In case you are in a trap to go to the inside and try desperately to do it differently, maybe another picture in your mind can be helpful
          Well, everybody knows, the club path is not straight, it is a curve.
          However, in the area between the feet the arc is quite straight.
          So, try to get a picture in your brain, that the clubhead leaves the ball at adress at a certain straight path and returns later on the very same.
          This may help to get away from „body thinking“, trust your body/brain to find a perfect solution, to get the clubhead on track.

          We are geniuses to find solutions.....


          • #6
            OK guys this one is perhaps going to be my best ever post. I mean one of the real insights and for some including me a game changer.

            Firstly Schrodinger although you are a very good poster you are wrong on this one. I respect how you have looked into they physical attributes of Rory's swing but lets be logical about things. Looking at a person perform a task is a very logical and helpful way of learning. If you are aware of what you are doing then comparisons are very useful. Swing forces work the same on Rory as they do you. Trust me. No swing is 100% the same on that we can agree.

            So in a direct comparison of me vs Rory I came up with what I thought was the key differences in my swing I posted and his I looked at.

            Then I broke it down to cause and effect. This is not simple and the hardest step.

            So key differences. 1. rotation different. 2. Backswing plane different 3. Downswing plane very different. 4. Standing up through impact 5. Earlier impact from me as he is more cleared through strike. 6. Inside connection with my standing saving the shot. 7. Different follow through path.

            Keep with me please.

            So first simply try and do what Rory is doing. Change plane and swing. Result = Pull left. Reason I cant swing on his plane and not hit left. Why????? Because I stand up through the strike.

            So why do I stand up through the strike? am I hitting at the ball? IS my focus wrong ?? Am I hip thrusting forward?? What is the effect and what is the cause???

            Ok so lets try and make that swing without standing up. Ahhhh that's strange with a heavy club and decent speed swing I CANT NOT STAND UP!!!!! Hmmmm that's interesting. The standing up is not an action it is a reaction!!!! OK so Ill keep disciplined on plane of Rory and make sure im 100% not swinging at the ball. result pull left!!!!! Again I rise through the strike and pull it left.

            Ok so now I have worked out that the standing is a force reaction to my swing and not a manipulation. My swing path error is my CNS working out that I need to be on that path in order to account for my standing through the hit. It has worked out that Rory's path with my swing force reaction will result in pull.

            Keep with me.

            So how the hell is Rory doing that. How do any of them do it. If the standing is a reaction to the swings ground forces then how the hell is he cheating nature. Is he swinging and not pushing up from the ground???? No he is pushing up from the ground. As is Jack and co. Jack has a massive push from the ground up and he does not stand up at the same time as me. But aha the both do stand up through the shot just after impact. So how the hell are they doing that.

            Well I have the answer. I reasoned it out.

            I will ask you a question. What do you feel is the counter balance point to the centripetal force in your swing. Im not sure how to describe this the counterweight or the part of your body you are swinging against. I'll give you a choice.

            1. Big muscles of the back.
            2. Rump or Ass or bottom.
            3. Left side
            4. head
            5. straight left leg.
            6. Arms
            8. Sternum
            9. None of the above.

            One of those 'anchors' allows you to collect the ball on the same plane as Rory and not stand up until after the strike whilst still swinging with ground forces.

            If you can tell me the 'anchor' or counterweight I was thinking of and then tell me the correct one then you have found one of the biggest secrets of golf. IMO the holy grail.

            Im not going to tell you which. Im happy to confirm your answers. Let me know your answers. It shocked me this one and has instantly stopped me standing
            the shot thus allowing me to achieve the correct plane and still hit a nice shot.


            • #7
              Hi Cally,

              Thanks for reading my posts and the only one to respond hahahaha.. .

              Ill tell you which one was my natural cns instinct. Choice 1. Back muscles.

              Ever seen a video where a golf pro sets up a golf ball on a baseball tee and demonstrates a swing on that flat plane?

              That was what I was doing. Counterweight or anchor in that example is your torso or back or backmuscles. whatever something behind and centre.

              If you swing on that anchor and I mean swing and not hit then the stand, early extention, hip thrust or whatever people have called it out in golf land is inevitable. You can make this work if you swing on an inside plane to compensate. As I said this is not done consciously this is a reaction to forces and the plane is a result of trial and error. A swing on the correct swing plane will result in a huge pull left.

              If you get what im talking about then make a swing with the swing anchor as all of the options I have mentioned on Rory's plane. You will still stand up through the swing. The forces are exactly the same but one will allow you to stand up after the ball is struck and take your hips open more at impact. Other choices will allow you to do something similar but will promote lack of balance and sway and all sorts of nasties.

              I was under the impression that you are a good player so I suspected and suspect the likes of you and costa can pass the test.

              I challenge Shawn himself to comment. I 100% know that he would pass and would probably cite the correct video in his vast library that deals with the exact thing im talking about.

              I told three people about this. Each time I gave them the answer and reasoning it went in one ear and out the other. I decided to give another mid handicap the story and the options and have him work it out for himself. He did and then understood. The only drawback is that he now thinks he worked it out himself and gave me no credit. hahhahaa human nature for you.

              Now tell me the correct anchor to the swing from ground up.


              • #8
                Originally posted by Gmonkey View Post

                Looking at Rory he strikes with the arms more in front and more 'left' at impact. I cant understand why this wouldnt be a pulled shot.
                I think the reason Rory doesn't pull left might be explained in this video see 10:00 -11:35

                Last edited by Schrodinger; 07-14-2018, 07:50 AM.


                • #9
                  Cally. That is a very impressive reply. Because despite your concerns you know exactly what im talking about and you have answered correctly.

                  Its funny because in your second post when you have thought a bit about what I have said you exactly answer my question and better than the options I gave. You did understand exactly but maybe modesty made you not confident. It is rare that you can get 100% on the same page with someone about golf but I feel we have achieved this. Your answer and opinion of my swing I agree with totally.

                  You said '
                  as the arms get catapulted or slung past you; and the feet and the head are the anchors to the swing.' That my friend and WIG friends is gold.

                  The answer I was looking for was number 4. the head but you have fleshed it out a bit.

                  The problem with thinking about the posterior/backside as the counterweight is that without understanding the anchor head (assuming the ground is always in any swing some sort of anchor) then you will spin out if you consider the ass as the counterweight without the heads anchor. So yes you have absolutely nailed the answer.

                  My miss can be a push or straight pull. Yes if my CNS has not timed the rise(stand up through the strike). It is not a conscious stand up through the shot. I didn't even know I was doing it. Until I shot the video all I knew was that I could not hit a decent shot from the correct plane. Costa pointed out my plane and takeaway error but simply swinging on the correct plane will not work without understanding the forces at play.

                  So now with the head as the anchor I can reach impact later (or earlier in the second pendulum depending how you describe the swing), clear more through the shot and most importantly use the rising power from the ground and conclusion of the swing after the ball has gone.

                  With this knowledge I can easily see how the head provides the same anchor in an over arm throw and even in an under arm throw and 100% in a stone skip. This is what Hogan is trying to describe in his famous stone skip analogy.

                  So I can now swing on plane, avoid standing through impact.

                  As for feet and leg issues. I firmly believe they are a reaction and Im not sure but ill pretty much bet that the lead leg issue will be gone due to the fresh intent.

                  I think you must be a very good golfer to answer as you have. I will video my swing again and we can see the profound difference this has made.

                  Have you posted your swing Cally? Id like to see it. You clearly understand golf more than you let on.

                  Shrode. Thanks for video. Ill look at it later.

                  Cally I must say it is so so rare that I can get a concept across and debate it with such precision as we have in this thread. Im delighted at your reply.


                  • Ken Robie
                    Ken Robie commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Gmonkey, I'll throw you a bone that you probably have looked past here. The body's reaction to the swings G- forces is not really directed toward the head or feet as an anchor but more of the body's recoil into a smaller profile (squat, crouch if you will) with it's CG moving back (away from the centripital tug on the body). Early extension is "usually" a direct result of the body trying to resist this pull vertically. Because of the pull against the body's higher CG.

                    Now to support this theory of mine go back to the very early days of Shawn giving us the analogy of the Mountain climber rescueing the climber bedlow him with the climbing rope. As the lower climber begins to swing back and forth across the cliff face the upper climber has to reposition his CG lower and behind away from the pull of the lower climbers force. The extreme golf swing is basicly the same????

                • #10
                  Imho Gmonkey , it might be worth reviewing the 'Centripetal Pump' videos and get that 'Sam Snead' squat look (Rory has it in abundance).


                  • #11
                    Hi Ken,

                    You said..
                    Early extension is "usually" a direct result of the body trying to resist this pull vertically.

                    100% agreed Ken. I thought I was saying basically the exact same thing.

                    Ok so we can both agree what we consider the cause of early extention to be. Forces and CG effect of the swing. So now on to your advice.

                    Ok so thinking about what you have said and Shawns mountain climber analogy the climber holding the rope the guy at the top indeed feels more weight in the feet as he reacts against the climbers weight.

                    My lack of understanding with that analogy is that the climber holding the rope would not have to think about repositioning his Centre of gravity. He would just react to the weight. The weight would make him reposition his CG and feel more force to the ground. He doesnt have time to think about this or he would drop the rope. He just reacts. So why doesnt the golfer who early extends just react to the weight as the climber does and solve it themselves ????

                    Their must be more too it than that. IE an error of intent??

                    What you think??

                    I have just been looking at Shawns swings and trying to work out what you said about the mountain climber. I have a question?

                    Do you think Shawn is building swing force from the top of the downswing. Ie A gradual swing build up right from the top. This could make the body react differently from what Im doing.

                    Just to clarify. In my swing I am catching the fall of the club with a swing to target. When I catch the fall of the weight of the club then that is going to put a big force strain on the swing and I dont see a way around that. Only to try and achieve this after the ball has gone or perhaps a more gradual build up of force that the body doesnt so aggressivly react to. I suppose a catapult does not catch a fall. It must be a gradual build up of swing power. Ill try it.

                    I wonder if im getting to narrow. Perhaps a wider arc swing would lessen the severity.

                    Shorde I searched for centrifual pump video and cant find one from Shawn.

                    I have heard the term centrifiiugal pump but not really heard it explained.

                    Last edited by Gmonkey; 07-16-2018, 09:49 AM.


                    • Ken Robie
                      Ken Robie commented
                      Editing a comment
                      "G" What I think about "why" golfers tend to early extend so easily is their interpretation of don't let the body move off of it's center. And by that I mean by them trying not to move dynamically with the changing pull on their CG during the swing they essentially lock their CG in place preventing a "counter" reaction to the swings outer pull on it's "static" posture. The only place for them to go is straight up from their feet. As far as Shawn building swing force from the top, absolutely!. I believe the swing is actually modeled around body as a rubber band. I. e. as the ACU elevates to the top of the back swing the body becomes taller in the lower body through the extension of the trail leg. And so as the downswing is initiated by the squat returning into the lead side, it is literally stretching the ACU against the lowering CG. This action is reversed during contact. It is the ball on a string analogy in perfect harmony with the amount of effort needed for "x" amount of momentum to target.

                  • #12
                    I see my quote. Yes I stand by all that. That is an accurate description of the forces but I notice I didnt try and explain the intent.

                    Ok so im going to hit a few shots by going back to ass as counterweight with the head as anchor and a gradual build up of swing power and end in front of the ball. Basically relocating my entire swing forward onto the front foot finish and catching the ball early on in the swing. If I can do that on plane then I'll know I have cracked it.

                    Whats at stake is pretty exciting because surely im close now.

                    I abandoned the ass as counterweight a while ago because I was spinning out of the shot. I think you can only use the ass as counterweight if you understand the heads role. I always thought of the head as set up on braced tilt but its more than that it is part of the reason you 'counterweight' doesnt get out of control.

                    Again thanks for imput fellas.

                    As you can see Im open to all your suggestions and wisdom. Thanks.


                    • #13
                      I was looking at Gary's blog regarding Centrifugal forces and although I think, from a physics perspective, it is a wrong way to define the golf swing , its probably easier for lots of golfers to use CF as a simple analogy. Its also probably more accurate to say that we use inertial forces to swing the golf club.

                      Centripetal force is a pull on the shaft via the hands , but of course (according to Newtons 3rd Law) , there is an equal and opposite force where the shaft is pulling on the hands, not outwards on the clubhead. There is a net force at the clubhead because the clubhead is changing direction (ie. centripetal force) but its also increasing speed along its curved path (by something else). If there was zero net force (ie. CF force cancelling Centripetal Force) on an already moving clubhead, then it would keep moving in a straight line (not in a curved path) at the same speed .

                      CF force keeps the club moving in an arc but it doesn't increase clubhead speed along its path , that requires 'something else' and its a bit too complicated for me to explain . But if you saw Shawn twirling a weight on a string and then increased the rotational speed by the sudden sharp up/down movements of his wrists/fingers , then that may give you a clue of what is actually happening to increase the rotational speed of that weight on a string.

                      If you really want to know some of the forces being used in the golf swing you will need to check out these 2 videos by Dr Sasho Mackenzie (but you need to review your old high school physics lessons). If this is too complex , then you are probably better off thinking more simply along the lines of CF forces but be warned that using that as an explanation is not entirely accurate.


                      Last edited by Schrodinger; 07-16-2018, 02:19 PM.


                      • #14
                        I honestly think I understand. Your post was good enough. That video confirms it.

                        Well Im honest enough to say that I did see the problem but not the solution. If I get what you are saying (and I think I do) then wow.

                        I'll post a video and see if I can do it. Im pretty sure that many would destroy this with an early release but im not going to fall into that trap.

                        As soon as I can get out with a club and ball Ill feedback.

                        Back soon. Thanks guys


                        • #15
                          I also have a theory about why golfers early extend and its just a timing issue on their application of 'parametric acceleration' . We are really 'inertial force experts ' (plus gravity experts too) as can be proved when we twirl a weight on a string in a horizontal plane (gravity not being used to assist the rotation in this scenario) and can increase/decrease the rate of rotation at will .

                          Adam Young and others normally mention 'parametric acceleration' closer to impact where they say golfers suddenly pull up on the clubshaft (by whatever means) to increase clubhead speed , flatspot , etc. They also point to how golfers try to do this like chicken winging the lead arm (Jamie Sadlowski), jump up off the ground (like Laura Davies), tippy -toes , sudden post up on your lead leg (like old Tiger Woods swing), lead shoulder joint/socket being pulled up . But imho, early extension is a premature evocation of 'parametric acceleration' and its all about trying to create speed too early in the downswing, basically a timing issue.

                          If you look at Sasho MacKenzie's 2nd video that I posted above, he actually mentions that a 'Moment Of Force' (ie. equivalent to how parametric acceleration works) happens at club parallel in the downswing. See 11:30 - 12.01.

                          In the downswing , the extending of your legs helps shift your hand (and club handle) path and creates a divergence between its path and the 'COG path' of the club. This causes a net force on the handle and a secondary 'Moment of Force' which is used to increase clubhead speed . If you don't time this properly , then it could effect the maxing out of your clubhead speed near ball , your clubhead path, low-point and clubface orientation at impact.

                          Imho, early extension is a secondary effect of consciously trying to create speed rather than focus on meeting your intent (and allowing your body to automatically do it for you).

                          Of course this is just hypothetical because no-one can predict with 100% certainty cause and effect in the golf swing.
                          Last edited by Schrodinger; 07-17-2018, 06:36 AM.