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  • #16
    Ok I just came back from the course. Implemented lots of your ideas guys.

    Some wonderful results on short irons. Misses on longer clubs not too bad.

    So it seems that the left knee thing did not resolve with the new intent and indeed that is a big problem I have. That's going to route the swing forward and cause a push or pull when swinging on the correct plane. Its not as bad with the shorter clubs and pitches for obvious reasons.

    The connected acceleration thing is marvellous. I applied it to my putting as well with wonderful results. I even found myself not wanting to ground my putter just like Shawn.

    So looking at that Monty video the left knee will cause me to drop relocate forward and make the early extention inevitable. If you modify his 'sway' reason for early extention slightly then that is it.

    and in second video he says body is getting in front so casting is a cns reaction. I wonder if my cns has opted to early extent in replacement of a cast. hmmmmmm

    So my legwork is wrong and the axis of my pivot is wrong. very very interesting.

    Ive done that leg thing forever.

    Shrode your scientific stuff is lost on me im afraid. I cant even spell let alone phisics.


    • #17
      Hi Everyone,

      lets keep this this conversation going. The video below I have memorized. This video is like adding olive oil to this post.


      • Schrodinger
        Schrodinger commented
        Editing a comment
        Hi Gary - I do like Ed Tischler but I think him saying its okay to cast early 'in plane' doesn't make any sense from a physics perspective.If it was a 'feel' cast early drill , it might fix some golfers swing faults who try to retain too much lag in the downswing but can't square the clubface in time ( it seems too close to an internal focus type cue for my liking). Not sure I even agree with his personal definition of 'Release' but there are so many definitions out there it makes my head spin.

        PS. He has got a point about having to release the posture angles to allow the club to get to the ball.

        Note: I just read some of the you-tube comments that were critical of Ed's video and one of his replies said

        " This video was made for those golfers that have tried to delay the release too long."
        Last edited by Schrodinger; 07-17-2018, 08:46 PM.

      • Gary
        Gary commented
        Editing a comment
        It is easily arguable that one has to be careful in describing anything related to the release. Describing it as being passive can become too passive, describing it as active can become too active, describing it as reactive may lead to it acting too late, etc, etc. This video was made for those golfers that have tried to delay the release too long. It was provided for the specific purpose of letting golfer know that releasing from the top, or releasing early isn't a problem, it is just part of the process. If the golfer releases early, or releases from the top and the ball flight travels left (for the right handed golfer) it wasn't the fault of the release. It was the fault of the body action not complimenting the release. Watching the video and listening carefully you will find that those concepts are communicated. People often overlook things that are being described and discussed. Additionally within such a short video you can't cover all parts that may neeed to be clarified, because there will be thousands of people coming up with their own questions

        The above is the entire answer/quote made by EA Tischler.

        I found this video different because it recommended to release quickly from the top rather than holding the lag.

        He points out in his answer that the problem is not the early or late release, it is the body action not complimenting the release.

      • Schrodinger
        Schrodinger commented
        Editing a comment
        Hi Gary - If we defined the start of 'Release' in the downswing as the point where the angle between the club and lead arm starts to increase (ulnar deviation) while 'In Plane', then golfers can have many different points of release (depending on many aspects of their biomechanics and ability to produce forces/torques at the correct times). But if we go back to that age old issue of 'cause and effect' , Ed (imho) needed to explain why he thinks holding the lag too long is a root cause of an issue and needs to be fixed by an earlier 'Release' (as defined above) rather than some other 'fix'.

        As far as I am aware , no golf 'instructor/theorist/scientist' can guarantee they know 'cause and effect' in the golf swing (it's a best guess based on incomplete data or past experience).

    • #18
      Hi Shrode.

      You said

      'Q . Why move our body forward ?
      Possible Answer: Golfer thinks that throwing his/her more body weight and club at the ball will create more momentum to transfer to the ball .'

      I think this starts in our early days in golf. Some of us start by naturaly moving off the ball then casting and then when we sort out the casting action we dont think its natural to move off the ball.

      So the way we stay over the ball promotes weight into our lead leg which bends with weight and relocates us in front of the ball. Now that we have addressed the early release this dipping action will not allow us to swing on plane without a stand or cast. As we have learned not to cast our CNS opts for stand. I have opted to play from this dipped backswing and try and accomodate the standing by swinging from an inside plane. That is of course a solution but a very incorrect one. You can play well but as soon as pressure comes on a shot then you can create a real card wrecker on a given hole. I have been lowish single figs and put a couple of drives out of bounds on 18 for this very reason. People think I have choked but its not that. Its because my swing will not stand up to the task and needs many more variables to be correct.

      So I am going to try to make my lead leg action more like Shawn and Jack. Im going to raise or roll the front foot on the backswing and not sway back but not get the dipping lead leg.

      I will then continue with the gradual connected swing rather than the drop and blow intent and make sure I dont early release with the idea that the swing takes place after impact.

      Ill post a video of yesterdays progress with the swing. With short irons and pitches I had dramatic improvement in feel and accuracy. Even putting felt more natural.

      However I did not sort out the leg/weight issue and will report back on that. It is a reaction but its a very early reaction in the swing due to incorrect backswing and so the new intent did not fix it. The fix is to feel comfy swinging behind the ball (but making sure the head does not move back and relocate to a push path).

      I hope it works. Soon see. By the way im not going to be thinking about all this when I swing. My one thought will be to move off the front foot and swing to target. Thats it.
      Last edited by Gmonkey; 07-18-2018, 07:19 AM.


      • #19

        I say 4 yards in the video but im over excited. Its 4 feet.

        This is yesterday before I understood the lead leg /hip/ foot error.

        But even the other intents you added have improved me.
        Last edited by Gmonkey; 07-18-2018, 08:31 AM.


        • #20
          Hi -Gmonkey

          With regards the feel of the 'Centripetal Pump' and improvement of virtually all aspects of the golf swing check out the 2 videos below for the feet together drill and how to do it 'correctly' . If Shawn hadn't reiterated in the 2nd video some of the errors we might tend to make doing this drill, I would have been doing it all wrong. It also mentions the 'mountain climber' analogy in the 1st video.


          • #21
            Some feedback.

            I was indeed losing the centre of gravity with a dip of the front leg.

            I found it very hard to stop doing this until I had changed my intent. I tried to fix this and I'll be honest I found it very tough to work out the proper intent. Shawns garage door video (thanks Cally) came to the rescue. My fix was to post up on the right leg but it made me lose my freewheeling sensation and I really didnt want to lose that. That video gave me a better intent option.

            Shawns garage door video if understood is perfect. I can either do that or have the feeling of chest over right thigh/foot into the ground on a shorter shot.

            The garage door analogy is quite possibly genius. I mean once I saw my hip turn intent was wrong I found it very difficult to feel natural on the backswing after making changes. I initially posted up on my right leg and this felt like a wind up of an overarm throw and it worked but the impulse was to push off from that like you would a ball throw. That introduced a push shot and didnt feel nice. It did not sit comfy in my natural swing style. Then I watched the garage door video through 'new eyes'. I had seen that before but my wisdom was not complete enough to understand the point. With the garage door intent I can make a full turn and feel comfy that im not losing my centre of gravity and not diping as a result. This means I no longer need to stand up through the shot.

            ( I actualy think the knee dip is a reaction to the bad hip turn intent) I dont think the knee dip is the action. As Shawn says the the hip turn is a reaction to the lean toward target. So the fault chain is lean, hip turn and knee dip. All weight driven so feels natural. The result is that I have relocated centre of gravity and now need natural coordination compensations to fix things. The natural compensation is the standing through the shot (which is so ingrained that I dont even know im doing it). I can hear Costa telling me it all began by defaulting to the ball !!!!!!! It probably did.

            Anyways I now think it is sorted. Its a pretty major change to my swing and one I had never spotted.

            My swing intent is the same and for that im relieved but I was not as far down the rabbit hole as I thought.

            My lower body action was pretty bad.

            Im going to get out a couple of times soon and will see if I have sorted it. Ill post a video.

            I do still fear I may move too far towards target and that will create a push path. I'll need to hit a few balls before I see how much of a problem that is.

            To be fair all good players have their ass moving towards target so it shouldnt be an issue if I have the anchors correct.

            We thats the update. Down the rabbit hole I go.

            Thanks guys.

            I also watched your suggested videos Shrode. Very relevant. With those drills I simply cant dip. Thanks.
            Last edited by Gmonkey; 08-01-2018, 06:07 AM.


            • #22
              Lots of work to do. I can see im going to have to get my hips open more through the ball and catch it later than im used to doing.

              Im shocked at this. I really am.

              I'll report back. Only had a chance to hit some whiffle balls in back garden and yes its a major change in intent.

              I think I have understood what you have been saying so lets see. The end result with be a body move and swing path that does not require a stand through the impact area.

              Ok will work on it.

              Thanks Cally.

              Now im hearing Shawn telling me to 'get out of the way' !!!

              While I was trying to process what you had said I found myself doing something similar to the PMD drill.

              My cns is finally accepting it is not a lateral move its a rotory swing. After 25 years !!!!!!!!!!!!
              Last edited by Gmonkey; 08-03-2018, 05:35 AM.


              • #23
                Hi Guys,

                Managed to get out last night on a strange course. Shot 19 over !!!!!!!!!!! Worst round for long long time.

                Tried to avoid standing up through the shot and with no compensations I was all over the place.

                Was pretty soul destroying. Lets face it we have all had days like that. I just wanted to report sometimes it doesnt go well. I have to keep believing. Cally you warned me this might happen so thanks for that. I think its important to talk about our faliure as well as success.

                Anyway I returned here and watched your edit inclusion video of the Hogan Power Move...drill.

                I can confirm that this is new information to me and that my right hip is indeed joining my left on the downswing in error. The idea that the right hip stays back and is joined by the left on downswing is indeed something I did not 'get'.

                This could be big wisdom I needed to know.

                My initial 'ghost swings' in office do seem to put swing on a much better path. Feels very strange. Its like my hip movement has been backwards to what you guys are doing.

                So once again ill regroup and give it a go.

                I love the logic of it, I love the clarity of Shawns video and analogy and im very thankful that you have posted this Cally.

                Between you and Shrode you have come up with many insights that I have overlooked.

                Please know I am grateful for this guys.

                I wonder how long this will take to feel natural. This really is a profound change.

                I'll report back.

                So this video is on 6.8.2018 (before I watched the hips video).


                Last edited by Gmonkey; 08-07-2018, 07:41 AM. Reason: video hips and legs fault


                • Gary
                  Gary commented
                  Editing a comment
                  The video below about the Hogan Power Move explains when the lateral move happens. I use to think that the lateral move happened during the Through Swing Transition. The lateral move happens during your Backswing. This is why it is very important to hold that right leg position during the Through Swing.

                  If you sway during your Backswing it will partially or totally cancel out the lateral move.

                  Hogan Power Move: 4/3/2007
                  X-Factor happens on the downswing. Lateral Move
                  "Shawn says that Hogan's lateral move occurred in the backswing; and Shawn explains how Hogan maintained leverage with his right leg as he cleared his left side in the downswing. Maintaining leverage from the right against the left prevents a spin-out and allows the hips to clear properly." (Cally)
                  A lateral movement occurs during the Backswing. The right hip, when it clears out of the way, is moving towards the target. There is your lateral move. The right hip holds its position and forces the left hip around and forward. This is the reverse K position.

                  To me the lateral move during the Backswing is one of the most important parts of the Hogan Power Move.



              • #24
                Hi Cally this hip action explains so many things. Ill report back. Ill use the 'series' and see if i can execute it.


                • #25
                  Coincidentally, all I've been doing at the range is hitting balls to a target (or cutting the dandelion stem - actually quite a long one = approx diameter of the ball) using the feet together drill 'properly' as per Shawn's old 'feet together addendum' video . Have had 4 sessions (120 balls per session) hitting PW, 8, 7, 6 and 23 degree hybrid and noticed that my 'balance /centering/ consistency of strike/rhythm/ direction' have all improved.

                  It really is the 'drill of drills' but I don't like thinking about 'getting the ground' because it makes me think about pushing into the ground too quickly from the top of the backswing. As we discussed in a previous thread , as you transition into the early downswing, the squat will make you feel as if there is less pressure (ie. sort of weightless) between your feet and the ground before you start 'getting the ground' a little later to help move your 'hips/upper torso' out of the way. So it should feel like a 'fall up ' in the backswing, 'fall down' in early downswing , then 'fall up' from early downswing through impact to a target (all done subconsciously).

                  PS. I think Shawn did a video with the feel analogy of 'extension/squat/extension' by jumping onto a step.

                  Last edited by Schrodinger; 08-07-2018, 10:50 PM.


                  • #26
                    Im back after quite a while away from golf. Played a practise 9 holes with multi balls and connection was good. Great in fact. On longer shots slight push.

                    I have been getting the club much more out in front and that has greatly helped my swing path. This only by way of a rotary intent and no longer lateral.

                    I was very happy with swing. Probably looked about 10 over to me.

                    HOWEVER I got some random guy to video my drive and I was still early extending. On power shots its more noticable.

                    Annoyed me to be honest because my plane looked good and my connection was great.

                    I diagnosed the extention to force reaction and I watched lots of videos last nite trying to work out why good players seem to be immune from the devastating force of reacting to the club swing. I mean how the hell are they cheating centrpeatal force????

                    After an hour of watching and another hour of thinking I wondered if swinging the weight of the club is wrong intent. If I swing the weight of the club and that causes Early Extention then im not gonna cheat that with any movement , position or swing thought. It simply has to be a wrong intent.

                    So I wonder if people are swinging their arms and not considering the weight at the end of the club. I mean my EE is worse with long heavier clubs. On short irons its almost gone.

                    So im wondering if the natural inclination to swing the weight of the club is wrong. Swing the arms from ground up with ass counterweight and just let the club swing through.

                    Now I think about it thats how I would throw a club. I think the reason why people throw the club left initially when throwing clubs is they are reacting to the weight with wrong intent.

                    I'll know in a few shots if this is right or wrong. Speak soon guys.

                    Its strange because if you Early Extend due to force reaction then your CNS can budget for it and you can actually play some ok golf. Its only if you stop yourself early extending and then massive problems kick in.

                    Having said that I will never play great golf with this wrong interpretation of swing.
                    Last edited by Gmonkey; 02-28-2019, 08:02 AM.


                    • #27
                      You probably don't want to hear how I solved this problem or even think it's worth pursuing but it does work on so many levels so here goes! I have found that the best way (for me) to combat EE and create a ton more compression and momentum toward my target is by 1: setting up taller in my posture at address, 2: addressing the ball with the club higher off the ground and further to the outside of the ball. (looks like you will completely create the dreaded "S" word) And lets be clear if you don't make room for the swing you will hit a "S". But by creating room for your hands in front ALA the football drill, on the down swing you are training your body to move into the ground and away from the ball as you come into impact. This provides you with room to use the ground to resist the pull of the club and room for your hands to stay in front and travel on their proper arc for the shot at hand. You can use tees or dry erase makers to provide a reference as to how well your face contact is progressing. It will cure your EE!!


                      • #28
                        It seems that the biomechanic experts now think early extension with the longer clubs , especially the driver, is probably a good thing to generate clubhead speed.

                        Here is the explanation:

                        Ist link below is an explanation on ground forces (to me that is similar to Shawn's 'Centrifugal Pump')


                        Note this guy trying to hit a golf ball on ice and watch his feet movement, then check the 2nd link below and watch the video

                        Click image for larger version

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                        The 2nd link below " "The Relationship Between Lead Leg Force and Early Extension" - check out the video



                        • #29
                          Shrode are they saying that EE is restricted by pressure on lead leg?

                          So how is Bubba off the ground through the strike?

                          Hmmm Ill look into it when I got a bit more time.


                          • Schrodinger
                            Schrodinger commented
                            Editing a comment
                            Hi Gmonkey - Yes , I think they are inferring that people can push back on their rear foot better than push forward on their lead foot. So there is a mis-match in forces and you end up pushing your rear hip and centre of mass forward (ie. early extension).

                            They say that EE is problematic for irons because you need a descending angle of attack but it might be okay for the driver (which has a slight ascending angle of attack).

                            Bubba looks suspiciously like a 'reverse foot' golfer while Justin Thomas is known to be a 'reverse foot' golfer . That is, they get approx 60% weight pressure on their lead foot in the downswing (when their lead arm is parallel to the ground) , but for the rest of the downswing , the weight pressure progressively moves more to their rear foot all the way to impact. Front foot golfers move weight pressure progressively to their front foot in the downswing all the way to impact.

                            So yes , both Bubba and Justin show EE but they try and prevent it by pushing up and back from their forefoots and even end up on their toes. EE is a way to counteract the 'pseudo -centrifugal' pull of the club , which can be about 100 lbs force for a driver as it approaches impact (that's quite a lot imho).

                            PS. Just shows that some PGA pros can win many tournaments with EE (so maybe the purists are not entirely correct when they claim it's a fault)
                            Last edited by Schrodinger; 03-01-2019, 08:08 PM.

                        • #30
                          Well Shrode I took this to the course and it didn't work for me. My driving was not good. Pushes , pulls and could feel myself losing spine angle. Any attempt to override CNS and maintain posture was of course a disaster.

                          Hit some good drives but im convinced it was just due to the usual compensations. Shot 12 over par and got a few lucky breaks.

                          My swing intent fix didn't work and neither did your weight suggestion.

                          My latest thoughts involve a profound change. I hope Gary or Costa can post a related Shawn video to what im about to say.

                          So you guys will be please to hear that it is an intent change of thought not a positional alteration.

                          I belive I generate power from golf in the same way I throw a ball over arm a far distance. That is ground forces whipping the arm through to target and inertia release.

                          Ok so if you don't agree with that then what im gonna say prob wont make any sense. It may not anyway.

                          So I was making slow motion swings in window reflection (I use that as a mirror at night) and I revisited the idea that it must be a hip or rotation issue. That is causing my EE.

                          So as usual I did a few overarm slow motion throws (without a ball) and instead on focusing what the swing is doing I looked at how the hips move.

                          Before I even noticed the hip move I was shocked at what my spine was doing.

                          I have always felt like a have a broom stick running down my back and I kind of swing around the pole. That's the intent ive set up with since a kid.

                          When I was throwing the ball it was clear that spine didn't feel like that on the throw.

                          I went into my current golf swing and I was way too deep in right hip. No way I could throw a ball from back there. But why was I getting back deep in the right hip. What was the false thing I was trying to achieve? I think it maybe my misunderstanding of spine. That sound silly because the spine is not a working part but if you try and rotate around your spine that's what im saying may be wrong.

                          Anyway I made my rotation as per the over arm throw with new spine intent and it felt very very strange but in a good way. No attempt to early extend. Also a much more free feeling of rotation.

                          It literally feels as though my ass is way right through the shot.

                          It has also instantly changed the way my hips work.

                          It could be a game changer but I been here many times before. Ill need to take this onto the range and if it works ill make a video.

                          Has Shawn got a spine angle video. Id very much like to hear what he says about this.