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  • #16
    I was looking at Gary's blog regarding Centrifugal forces and although I think, from a physics perspective, it is a wrong way to define the golf swing , its probably easier for lots of golfers to use CF as a simple analogy. Its also probably more accurate to say that we use inertial forces to swing the golf club.

    Centripetal force is a pull on the shaft via the hands , but of course (according to Newtons 3rd Law) , there is an equal and opposite force where the shaft is pulling on the hands, not outwards on the clubhead. There is a net force at the clubhead because the clubhead is changing direction (ie. centripetal force) but its also increasing speed along its curved path (by something else). If there was zero net force (ie. CF force cancelling Centripetal Force) on an already moving clubhead, then it would keep moving in a straight line (not in a curved path) at the same speed .

    CF force keeps the club moving in an arc but it doesn't increase clubhead speed along its path , that requires 'something else' and its a bit too complicated for me to explain . But if you saw Shawn twirling a weight on a string and then increased the rotational speed by the sudden sharp up/down movements of his wrists/fingers , then that may give you a clue of what is actually happening to increase the rotational speed of that weight on a string.

    If you really want to know some of the forces being used in the golf swing you will need to check out these 2 videos by Dr Sasho Mackenzie (but you need to review your old high school physics lessons). If this is too complex , then you are probably better off thinking more simply along the lines of CF forces but be warned that using that as an explanation is not entirely accurate.
    Last edited by Schrodinger; 07-16-2018, 01:19 PM.


    • #17
      I honestly think I understand. Your post was good enough. That video confirms it.

      Well Im honest enough to say that I did see the problem but not the solution. If I get what you are saying (and I think I do) then wow.

      I'll post a video and see if I can do it. Im pretty sure that many would destroy this with an early release but im not going to fall into that trap.

      As soon as I can get out with a club and ball Ill feedback.

      Back soon. Thanks guys


      • #18
        I also have a theory about why golfers early extend and its just a timing issue on their application of 'parametric acceleration' . We are really 'inertial force experts ' (plus gravity experts too) as can be proved when we twirl a weight on a string in a horizontal plane (gravity not being used to assist the rotation in this scenario) and can increase/decrease the rate of rotation at will .

        Adam Young and others normally mention 'parametric acceleration' closer to impact where they say golfers suddenly pull up on the clubshaft (by whatever means) to increase clubhead speed , flatspot , etc. They also point to how golfers try to do this like chicken winging the lead arm (Jamie Sadlowski), jump up off the ground (like Laura Davies), tippy -toes , sudden post up on your lead leg (like old Tiger Woods swing), lead shoulder joint/socket being pulled up . But imho, early extension is a premature evocation of 'parametric acceleration' and its all about trying to create speed too early in the downswing, basically a timing issue.

        If you look at Sasho MacKenzie's 2nd video that I posted above, he actually mentions that a 'Moment Of Force' (ie. equivalent to how parametric acceleration works) happens at club parallel in the downswing. See 11:30 - 12.01.

        In the downswing , the extending of your legs helps shift your hand (and club handle) path and creates a divergence between its path and the 'COG path' of the club. This causes a net force on the handle and a secondary 'Moment of Force' which is used to increase clubhead speed . If you don't time this properly , then it could effect the maxing out of your clubhead speed near ball , your clubhead path, low-point and clubface orientation at impact.

        Imho, early extension is a secondary effect of consciously trying to create speed rather than focus on meeting your intent (and allowing your body to automatically do it for you).

        Of course this is just hypothetical because no-one can predict with 100% certainty cause and effect in the golf swing.
        Last edited by Schrodinger; 07-17-2018, 05:36 AM.


        • #19
          Originally posted by Schrodinger View Post
          Imho, early extension is a secondary effect of consciously trying to create speed rather than focus on meeting your intent (and allowing your body to automatically do it for you).
          This makes sense to me Schrodinger!

          On another note, for anyone who is interested, I first saw this video a couple months ago where the idea is that "early extension" isn't really a swing fault so to speak, but it's a necessary compensation or a solution to a problem at some other point in the swing . . .

          While there can be many reasons for "early extension," (some more fundamental than others I suppose) I wonder how many of us "early extend" on a practice swing without a ball sitting there in front of us inviting us to "hit" it?

          And on a related note of another perceived "swing fault" and the body's reaction to it, here's one more video to ponder . . .

          I think I chimed in here too much already . . . I'll go away now.


          • Schrodinger
            Schrodinger commented
            Editing a comment
            Hi Cally - yes I've seen these videos before and they do make one think more about deeply cause and effect. With reference to the casting video, maybe we should delve a bit further and ask why we tend to move our upper body forward ? why fold our arms/clubhead around our neck? why would we dip towards the ball?

            Q . Why move our body forward ?
            Possible Answer: Golfer thinks that throwing his/her more body weight and club at the ball will create more momentum to transfer to the ball .

            Q. Why fold your arms and club close around your body?
            Possible Answer: Golfer thinks he/she will be able to generate more clubhead speed . Actually the golfer might be correct about creating extra speed even if they do cast early but the timing required to hit the ball might be very difficult.

            Q. Why dip towards the ball?
            Possible Answer: Don't know to be honest but the dipping might be the golfers perception that he/she can then create greater leverage in the downswing by standing up from a dipped position (ie. early extension and casting at the same time).

            Incorrect perceptions about how to create clubhead speed can actually be the root cause of many non-optimal swing actions which is why I like studying the physics side (although I've forgotten a lot since my uni days).

          • Cally
            Cally commented
            Editing a comment
            Good questions, and good possible answers Schrodinger!

            Along with "incorrect perceptions about how to create clubhead speed," being "the root cause of many non-optimal swing actions" I would also add "incorrect perceptions" about what the task is; and how the tool (golf club) is actually designed to work.

          • Schrodinger
            Schrodinger commented
            Editing a comment
            Yes Cally - correct intent on achieving an outcome imho outweighs everything . There is no need to think about the physics or any other pre-conceived notions about the mechanics , etc etc.

        • #20
          Ok I just came back from the course. Implemented lots of your ideas guys.

          Some wonderful results on short irons. Misses on longer clubs not too bad.

          So it seems that the left knee thing did not resolve with the new intent and indeed that is a big problem I have. That's going to route the swing forward and cause a push or pull when swinging on the correct plane. Its not as bad with the shorter clubs and pitches for obvious reasons.

          The connected acceleration thing is marvellous. I applied it to my putting as well with wonderful results. I even found myself not wanting to ground my putter just like Shawn.

          So looking at that Monty video the left knee will cause me to drop relocate forward and make the early extention inevitable. If you modify his 'sway' reason for early extention slightly then that is it.

          and in second video he says body is getting in front so casting is a cns reaction. I wonder if my cns has opted to early extent in replacement of a cast. hmmmmmm

          So my legwork is wrong and the axis of my pivot is wrong. very very interesting.

          Ive done that leg thing forever.

          Shrode your scientific stuff is lost on me im afraid. I cant even spell let alone phisics.


          • #21
            Hi Everyone,

            lets keep this this conversation going. The video below I have memorized. This video is like adding olive oil to this post.


            • Schrodinger
              Schrodinger commented
              Editing a comment
              Hi Gary - I do like Ed Tischler but I think him saying its okay to cast early 'in plane' doesn't make any sense from a physics perspective.If it was a 'feel' cast early drill , it might fix some golfers swing faults who try to retain too much lag in the downswing but can't square the clubface in time ( it seems too close to an internal focus type cue for my liking). Not sure I even agree with his personal definition of 'Release' but there are so many definitions out there it makes my head spin.

              PS. He has got a point about having to release the posture angles to allow the club to get to the ball.

              Note: I just read some of the you-tube comments that were critical of Ed's video and one of his replies said

              " This video was made for those golfers that have tried to delay the release too long."
              Last edited by Schrodinger; 07-17-2018, 07:46 PM.

            • Gary
              Gary commented
              Editing a comment
              It is easily arguable that one has to be careful in describing anything related to the release. Describing it as being passive can become too passive, describing it as active can become too active, describing it as reactive may lead to it acting too late, etc, etc. This video was made for those golfers that have tried to delay the release too long. It was provided for the specific purpose of letting golfer know that releasing from the top, or releasing early isn't a problem, it is just part of the process. If the golfer releases early, or releases from the top and the ball flight travels left (for the right handed golfer) it wasn't the fault of the release. It was the fault of the body action not complimenting the release. Watching the video and listening carefully you will find that those concepts are communicated. People often overlook things that are being described and discussed. Additionally within such a short video you can't cover all parts that may neeed to be clarified, because there will be thousands of people coming up with their own questions

              The above is the entire answer/quote made by EA Tischler.

              I found this video different because it recommended to release quickly from the top rather than holding the lag.

              He points out in his answer that the problem is not the early or late release, it is the body action not complimenting the release.

            • Schrodinger
              Schrodinger commented
              Editing a comment
              Hi Gary - If we defined the start of 'Release' in the downswing as the point where the angle between the club and lead arm starts to increase (ulnar deviation) while 'In Plane', then golfers can have many different points of release (depending on many aspects of their biomechanics and ability to produce forces/torques at the correct times). But if we go back to that age old issue of 'cause and effect' , Ed (imho) needed to explain why he thinks holding the lag too long is a root cause of an issue and needs to be fixed by an earlier 'Release' (as defined above) rather than some other 'fix'.

              As far as I am aware , no golf 'instructor/theorist/scientist' can guarantee they know 'cause and effect' in the golf swing (it's a best guess based on incomplete data or past experience).

          • #22
            Hi Shrode.

            You said

            'Q . Why move our body forward ?
            Possible Answer: Golfer thinks that throwing his/her more body weight and club at the ball will create more momentum to transfer to the ball .'

            I think this starts in our early days in golf. Some of us start by naturaly moving off the ball then casting and then when we sort out the casting action we dont think its natural to move off the ball.

            So the way we stay over the ball promotes weight into our lead leg which bends with weight and relocates us in front of the ball. Now that we have addressed the early release this dipping action will not allow us to swing on plane without a stand or cast. As we have learned not to cast our CNS opts for stand. I have opted to play from this dipped backswing and try and accomodate the standing by swinging from an inside plane. That is of course a solution but a very incorrect one. You can play well but as soon as pressure comes on a shot then you can create a real card wrecker on a given hole. I have been lowish single figs and put a couple of drives out of bounds on 18 for this very reason. People think I have choked but its not that. Its because my swing will not stand up to the task and needs many more variables to be correct.

            So I am going to try to make my lead leg action more like Shawn and Jack. Im going to raise or roll the front foot on the backswing and not sway back but not get the dipping lead leg.

            I will then continue with the gradual connected swing rather than the drop and blow intent and make sure I dont early release with the idea that the swing takes place after impact.

            Ill post a video of yesterdays progress with the swing. With short irons and pitches I had dramatic improvement in feel and accuracy. Even putting felt more natural.

            However I did not sort out the leg/weight issue and will report back on that. It is a reaction but its a very early reaction in the swing due to incorrect backswing and so the new intent did not fix it. The fix is to feel comfy swinging behind the ball (but making sure the head does not move back and relocate to a push path).

            I hope it works. Soon see. By the way im not going to be thinking about all this when I swing. My one thought will be to move off the front foot and swing to target. Thats it.
            Last edited by Gmonkey; 07-18-2018, 06:19 AM.


            • #23
              Originally posted by Gmonkey View Post
              So I am going to try to make my lead leg action more like Shawn and Jack. Im going to raise or roll the front foot on the backswing and not sway back but not get the dipping lead leg.

              You're probably tired of hearing from me on this thread, but I'm just trying to help.

              On the lead leg action, I know you understand the issue, and I pointed this out in your swing video as I thought it was the likely initial cause to other issues in your swing.

              I was going to post this "unlisted" video for you earlier in this thread, but now that you mention the lead leg action again, I thought I would go ahead and post this now . . .

              Along with what Shawn does/explains in this video, perhaps doing a little bit of the one leg drill (before your actual swing) will help you with the lead leg issue too.

              Hope this helps!


              • Gmonkey
                Gmonkey commented
                Editing a comment
                Why on earth would I be tired from hearing from you. Your contributions have been incredible.

                OMG Cally this video is me!!!! Its literally a tailor made lesson for me. After payday ill make a donation to the site. I wasnt far off with the fix. He talks about foot roll. But has fleshed it all out to the max. Nothing is ever held back with Shawn. Its all there on a plate for me. Thanks so much. This is like seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. I hope Shawn reads this thread and sees what you have done here Cally.
                Last edited by Gmonkey; 07-18-2018, 07:30 AM.

              • Cally
                Cally commented
                Editing a comment
                Okay, I'm glad you're not tired of hearing from me! I have more videos in mind that will help solidify things that I'll post in a minute. Even if you've seen them before they are good to review. BTW, I've had the same issues with the lead leg protruding in the backswing so you're not alone!

            • #24

              I say 4 yards in the video but im over excited. Its 4 feet.

              This is yesterday before I understood the lead leg /hip/ foot error.

              But even the other intents you added have improved me.
              Last edited by Gmonkey; 07-18-2018, 07:31 AM.


              • #25

                A couple more videos/drills for the lead leg / foundation of the swing . . .


                • #26
                  Hi -Gmonkey

                  With regards the feel of the 'Centripetal Pump' and improvement of virtually all aspects of the golf swing check out the 2 videos below for the feet together drill and how to do it 'correctly' . If Shawn hadn't reiterated in the 2nd video some of the errors we might tend to make doing this drill, I would have been doing it all wrong. It also mentions the 'mountain climber' analogy in the 1st video.


                  • #27
                    Some feedback.

                    I was indeed losing the centre of gravity with a dip of the front leg.

                    I found it very hard to stop doing this until I had changed my intent. I tried to fix this and I'll be honest I found it very tough to work out the proper intent. Shawns garage door video (thanks Cally) came to the rescue. My fix was to post up on the right leg but it made me lose my freewheeling sensation and I really didnt want to lose that. That video gave me a better intent option.

                    Shawns garage door video if understood is perfect. I can either do that or have the feeling of chest over right thigh/foot into the ground on a shorter shot.

                    The garage door analogy is quite possibly genius. I mean once I saw my hip turn intent was wrong I found it very difficult to feel natural on the backswing after making changes. I initially posted up on my right leg and this felt like a wind up of an overarm throw and it worked but the impulse was to push off from that like you would a ball throw. That introduced a push shot and didnt feel nice. It did not sit comfy in my natural swing style. Then I watched the garage door video through 'new eyes'. I had seen that before but my wisdom was not complete enough to understand the point. With the garage door intent I can make a full turn and feel comfy that im not losing my centre of gravity and not diping as a result. This means I no longer need to stand up through the shot.

                    ( I actualy think the knee dip is a reaction to the bad hip turn intent) I dont think the knee dip is the action. As Shawn says the the hip turn is a reaction to the lean toward target. So the fault chain is lean, hip turn and knee dip. All weight driven so feels natural. The result is that I have relocated centre of gravity and now need natural coordination compensations to fix things. The natural compensation is the standing through the shot (which is so ingrained that I dont even know im doing it). I can hear Costa telling me it all began by defaulting to the ball !!!!!!! It probably did.

                    Anyways I now think it is sorted. Its a pretty major change to my swing and one I had never spotted.

                    My swing intent is the same and for that im relieved but I was not as far down the rabbit hole as I thought.

                    My lower body action was pretty bad.

                    Im going to get out a couple of times soon and will see if I have sorted it. Ill post a video.

                    I do still fear I may move too far towards target and that will create a push path. I'll need to hit a few balls before I see how much of a problem that is.

                    To be fair all good players have their ass moving towards target so it shouldnt be an issue if I have the anchors correct.

                    We thats the update. Down the rabbit hole I go.

                    Thanks guys.

                    I also watched your suggested videos Shrode. Very relevant. With those drills I simply cant dip. Thanks.
                    Last edited by Gmonkey; 08-01-2018, 05:07 AM.


                    • Cally
                      Cally commented
                      Editing a comment

                      Don't get discouraged if things don't improve right away. As you know, it takes a lot of time and patience to get things working correctly in the golf swing, and with the new and different mechanics you're working on it may take some time to match new feelings with the different mechanics, and also adjust for any compensations you've been making heretofore.

                  • #28
                    Lots of work to do. I can see im going to have to get my hips open more through the ball and catch it later than im used to doing.

                    Im shocked at this. I really am.

                    I'll report back. Only had a chance to hit some whiffle balls in back garden and yes its a major change in intent.

                    I think I have understood what you have been saying so lets see. The end result with be a body move and swing path that does not require a stand through the impact area.

                    Ok will work on it.

                    Thanks Cally.

                    Now im hearing Shawn telling me to 'get out of the way' !!!

                    While I was trying to process what you had said I found myself doing something similar to the PMD drill.

                    My cns is finally accepting it is not a lateral move its a rotory swing. After 25 years !!!!!!!!!!!!
                    Last edited by Gmonkey; 08-03-2018, 04:35 AM.


                    • #29

                      Doing this walking drill should help move things along in the right direction . . .

                      Among other points Shawn mentions in here is keeping our center of gravity intact, including the anti sway idea as well as the lead leg action in the backswing where the lead knee rotates IN rather than protruding FORWARD.

                      And since you mentioned "get out of the way," as an aside, and FWIW, in my learning of this stuff, the "out of the way; out of the way" idea wasn't specific enough for me. Without the proper foot and leg work and maintaining the center of gravity inside the feet along with the proper weight shift, just the idea of "out of the way" wasn't very helpful to me.

                      Maybe I just wasn't understanding it completely as I thought "out of the way" was about not letting the arms crash into the rib cage (which it is in part). But in my case as I was getting "out of the way" in earnest, unbeknownst to me I was swaying and over-rotating in the backswing which made it very difficult to shift weight pressure back to the lead side in the transition.

                      So IMHO, I think the idea of "out of the way" is fine if one already has an understanding and feeling for HOW to do it, but for me the idea of "out of the way; out of the way" just wasn't enough without the proper mechanics (e.g., the HPM) to go with it.

                      Edit: For anyone who is interested, since I mentioned the HPM, I thought I would add the HPM drill video for reference. Shawn makes this move look simple, but I can't tell you how long it took me to really get this . . .

                      Last edited by Cally; 08-03-2018, 07:35 AM. Reason: Add video


                      • #30
                        Hi Guys,

                        Managed to get out last night on a strange course. Shot 19 over !!!!!!!!!!! Worst round for long long time.

                        Tried to avoid standing up through the shot and with no compensations I was all over the place.

                        Was pretty soul destroying. Lets face it we have all had days like that. I just wanted to report sometimes it doesnt go well. I have to keep believing. Cally you warned me this might happen so thanks for that. I think its important to talk about our faliure as well as success.

                        Anyway I returned here and watched your edit inclusion video of the Hogan Power Move...drill.

                        I can confirm that this is new information to me and that my right hip is indeed joining my left on the downswing in error. The idea that the right hip stays back and is joined by the left on downswing is indeed something I did not 'get'.

                        This could be big wisdom I needed to know.

                        My initial 'ghost swings' in office do seem to put swing on a much better path. Feels very strange. Its like my hip movement has been backwards to what you guys are doing.

                        So once again ill regroup and give it a go.

                        I love the logic of it, I love the clarity of Shawns video and analogy and im very thankful that you have posted this Cally.

                        Between you and Shrode you have come up with many insights that I have overlooked.

                        Please know I am grateful for this guys.

                        I wonder how long this will take to feel natural. This really is a profound change.

                        I'll report back.

                        So this video is on 6.8.2018 (before I watched the hips video).


                        Last edited by Gmonkey; 08-07-2018, 06:41 AM. Reason: video hips and legs fault


                        • Cally
                          Cally commented
                          Editing a comment

                          Just to expand a little on what you're discovering . . .

                          In the HPM drill video, the idea as Shawn emphasizes of the "right hip pocket remains in place" is key in clearing the hips properly. In my case, with a sway in the backswing, I wasn't creating, let alone maintaining, leverage with the rear leg in order to allow the right hip pocket to remain in place. Without this leverage it was difficult, if not impossible, to transfer or shift weight pressure to the lead leg, and as Shawn points out can lead to a spin out of the hips in the downswing. When done properly however, the hips stay back (no standing up in the downswing), and the leverage from the rear leg allows you to transfer weight pressure to the lead leg for a solid brace to compress through the ball. So with the HPM, it's crucial that the "right hip pocket remains in place" and then the left hip returns or clears to the left. For me, this is the understanding and feeling I needed to get for the proper mechanics to happen, and why the mere "out of the way" idea just wasn't doing it for me.

                          Following the HPM videos, my understanding is that Shawn then put out the "Best Downswing Weight Shift" video as a stepping stone from the HPM. So I see the HPM drill video as more of a technical or mechanical video for gaining an understanding and feeling of how the hips should clear; and the "Best Downswing Weight Shift" video I see as more of a dynamic way to put this HPM in action where Shawn explains how the weight shift happens from behind us in the transition.

                          Finally, Shawn has the more recent video I posted above entitled "Best Way to Learn Weight Shift and Transition - Take a Walk!" which I see is a further stepping stone from the earlier "Best Downswing Weight Shift" video. So I see these videos as sort of a series, and a way to transition from a technical or mechanical move to more of a seamless and subtle move that happens in the swing.

                        • Gary
                          Gary commented
                          Editing a comment
                          The video below about the Hogan Power Move explains when the lateral move happens. I use to think that the lateral move happened during the Through Swing Transition. The lateral move happens during your Backswing. This is why it is very important to hold that right leg position during the Through Swing.

                          If you sway during your Backswing it will partially or totally cancel out the lateral move.

                          Hogan Power Move: 4/3/2007
                          X-Factor happens on the downswing. Lateral Move
                          "Shawn says that Hogan's lateral move occurred in the backswing; and Shawn explains how Hogan maintained leverage with his right leg as he cleared his left side in the downswing. Maintaining leverage from the right against the left prevents a spin-out and allows the hips to clear properly." (Cally)
                          A lateral movement occurs during the Backswing. The right hip, when it clears out of the way, is moving towards the target. There is your lateral move. The right hip holds its position and forces the left hip around and forward. This is the reverse K position.

                          To me the lateral move during the Backswing is one of the most important parts of the Hogan Power Move.