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  • #46


    • #47
      Hi GM - Buenas Dias WIG Devotees far & near..

      I've been following along - and hope to contribute a little if I can to advancing the journey..

      and .. I'll try to keep this out of the 'golf jargon weeds' that I can so easily fall into..

      What I think I see is that you've worked out a way to make your backswing and downswing to work on the same plane. That's pretty cool - and from what I see at the 'top' is that you're looking with your right eye where you intend to bring the club back through the line that you see to advance the ball.

      so I'd ask the question .. are you aligned as 'train tracks' or parallel left to the target ?

      that's what it looks like from here.. and that's OK .. but it will contribute to some potential challenges in terms of total potential speed later.

      I'm trying not to put words in Alpine's or Ken's prior posts .. but you can see Alpine mention a sort of 'up down/lift' and Ken talk about a 'lack of width' .. both are correct and to my 'ears' are talking about 2 qualities that would be desirable in a golf swing depending.

      Depending on either - getting more of a 'drop from the top' .. or getting more 'width' to take advantage of your body rotation. You don't necessarily need both together .. in that it can make a swing with too much going on .. too tough to time.

      So I'll use Ken's observation for the moment - and say a swing that is working in a way where it goes more or less 'back' to where it could just drop back down relative to the body turn.. and for me the best I ever saw at the Pro level would be Steve Stricker..

      he is working from a similar concept as yours .. works to a sort of 'maximum width' and as he turns the club works around and back through the ball..

      it's potentially a valid thing for you to consider.. I don't know enough about how he aligns to say whether or not that will fit how you're potentially visualizing your shots and standing to them.

      The 'Up & Down' that I'm probably misinterpreting from Alpine but is present in many of what are considered 2 Plane Swings .. have a more distinct 'drop' from the top of the takeaway to the throughswing ..

      this gets complicated .. but I think you recently put up a video of a Surf Casting Fisherman.. if you can .. just watch the tip of his Fishing Rod .. relative to his body turn .. it drops or flattens radically as he is turning back through .. so the tip is lower and flatter .. and has taken advantage of a 'free gravity drop' before it works most effectively with the rotational energy /timing of his body.

      this isn't a perfect video to see this .. but it gives you a similar angle and speed .. and his some of the same characteristics .. Andrew 'Beef' Johnston.. watch his hands at the top vs. the 'through' swing ..

      you'll see his start a bit higher relative to your 'top' .. but find their way 'down' more or less to where your hands are and their way back 'through' or 'around'..

      so the rhythmic backswing has added a bit of 'mass' to the head and shaft of the ACE .. and gravity will work 'down' but while turning .. so watch his hands relative to his right shoulder and of course, watch the clubhead ..

      so.. right now . I believe you're working on what constitute elements of timing for your swing .. in that as there is minimal drop .. but a predictable through line.. your only manageable variable is getting enough turn and speed working 'through' .. but without standing you up and out of the swing..

      so it's in your hands and hips .. the more 'around speed' you generate .. the byproduct is some of that energy working you 'up' .. so the experience would be a bit like trying to stay 'over' or 'covered' ..

      the short of it .is that you've likely maximized what you can likely generate from your existing swing. There may be days where you find something that optimizes it and have it grooved and working .. and get better results .. and those will be very fun days. There will be days where your timing won't quite work and you'll struggle a bit more.. and adding power will not help..

      either way - you have been playing to this .. and have been shooting some decent scores .. that's not an accident, you're clearly a good athlete and the ball seems like it's coming off the face of the club with great speed. This will come down to what your priorities are .. do you want to just play with what you have .. or are you trying to perfect something that may take a long time to work out .. and potentially make it harder to enjoy playing .. the feared 'in between' in golf..

      and .. there's a good chance that I could be looking at this incorrectly .. for what it's worth - I wouldn't put this kind of time into a response if I thought it was 'off base' but .. at the end .. I'm just another set of eyes looking at it ..

      I think the physics of all this have the final say .. in terms of 'natural acceleration' all the clubhead knows is a bit more travel time and a bit more fall .. so you can tap either a bit more extension (width) and/or a bit more fall (drop of ACU or Clubhead depending)

      I don't believe that you can rotate much more than what you already are.. so that leaves hands/hips to try and add tempo.. that will give you some EE relative to the rotational forces .. and make it a little tougher to see and time..but it's absolutely possible..

      so that leaves 'drop' .. I'm not the 'poster boy' for this .. but I had to learn it with takeaway path .. my flaw is to work 'in' .. the old .. 'too much turn' .. which shortened my swing and made it hard to time ..

      but I worked hard to see a better line and stay committed to it .. and put some things to show me the proper backswing line and resulting clubhead path to stay with ..

      I don't say that lightly in that while it can ultimately offer you 'better' .. it will also retime your swing and potentially leave you in a sort of 'swing wilderness' .. but that is one way you can build a bit more actual width and potential drop..

      so .. just one Crackpot Golf Theorist's opinion .. I respect your journey, your hard work and your courage & willingness to share it with us.. believe me, I understand some of what you're working with and through.. and I've had people try to help me find things that existed outside of what I thought I knew or understood .. every year / every season sometimes every round I learn something new.. and often it comes in a way that challenges what I thought I knew..

      one day .. I hope that we can tee it up .. no idea where you are in the world and where and when we can play.. but that's the nature of the great game ..

      Harvey Penick said it so well.. 'if you play golf, you're my friend' .. and with all his great wisdom .. he would only charge a few dollars for a lesson.. I'm not sure what lesson he was trying to share with that .. but I suspect that one of the cornerstones of wisdom is humility..

      that's the best I've got for now ..

      hope it is of some use to you in 2019.


      from the hidden Ravine below 13th at CN G&CC
      tu nunquam hic

      Secret Swing Tech c/o Pigaman @ Crackpot Labs

      let energy instead of style define you.

      Proud Member 'Quote Yourself Club'


      • #48
        Kid, it seems like, you don‘t agree with my posting, but I believe, I am completely congruent with Wisdomingolf


        • kid_fullerene
          kid_fullerene commented
          Editing a comment
          Hi Alpine - appreciate you sharing this, I tried to put in my post that it wasn't necessarily how you saw it .. but tried to express an obvious sense of how the 'resulting top' of the swing was relative to turn. I know that you're very much working in the WIG space .. but was looking to try and blend your concept/point with something that was a bit 'off the page' and maybe easier to see . I think that clarifying this is important - and I will continue to stipulate that you speak for yourself - apologies for 'muddying the waters' .. all the best , k_f

          PS - hopefully you and other readers would see that the most important aspects of my response were about identifying where potential speed will or won't come from and what width and drop might potentially appear in a swing as.. in forms including but other than WIG as well.

      • #49
        Hi Greg....hi guys

        In the FWIW department, here's video observation a-la-dude... (four basic points)

        1. To Ken's point, I agree that you can do with a bit more width. To your question, I believe that width is an ACTION; not a "result".
        To get more width, take a look at our RIGHT-elbow at the top of swing? (2:10 of the video) and see if you can EXTEND your hands FURTHER AWAY from your HEAD?
        Check to see if your Right-arm has "collapsed"? From this angle, it is hard to see?? At this point in your swing, Right-elbow should be pretty close to 90-degrees.
        I'd be willing to bet that we'd find your Right-forearm is smushed right up against your bicep?

        2. Again, tough to see from this angle, but it appears that, at Address, your Left-foot is somewhat FORWARD of the ball? As the player, sometimes proper alignment can be difficult to identify?
        Here's my test: With the club-head in its "soled" position, set the Shaft PERPENDICULAR to your Target-line... Now set your feet so that the shaft of the club (in that perpendicular position) is pointing to the center of your left-thigh. This out-of-position at Address can, in and of itself, contribute to Early-Extension?

        And here's the point(s) to which I've previously alluded, and that you're probably not going to like or will deny?

        Do you believe at all in "body-language"? I do, and here's the two evidences (IMHO) about you being a bit "BALL-focused"?

        3. At the top of your swing (see 2:10 of the video as above), check where your Left-KNEE is pointing? Right AT the ball.
        That not only INHIBITS your hip-rotation, but (in my experience and observation) is indicative of what/where your MIND is "focused" at that point??
        Proper hip rotation will result in that knee pointing to the REAR of the ball at that checkpoint.

        4. I fully realize that your video presentation is in "slow-motion"... However, take a look at your distribution-of-TIME during your process...

        By the time you've soled your club and set your feet, completing your Address (1:22) your Target-acquisition phase takes until 1:35 when you return your attention to the ball (13 "ticks")…
        You then stare at the ball for a full THIRTY "ticks" before beginning the take-away. You never returned to the target? The resulting swing takes seven "ticks".
        I would suggest that your time-distribution is backwards?

        Stare at the Target; glance at the Ball.

        It is my opinion that by the time you begin your take-away, your mind has "forgotten" about the Target? and is now focused upon that at which you've been staring for the past 30 "ticks".

        I'll go away quietly now and leave you alone.
        Hope it is of some help, and no offense intended.

        Love this place and you guys

        dude abides
        Last edited by COSTA103; 03-22-2019, 09:56 AM.
        "OLD" Forum Participation

        Entry Date: 18-JAN-2011
        Posts: 1813
        Thank You: 1048

        "Be water, my friends"


        • kid_fullerene
          kid_fullerene commented
          Editing a comment
          Dude - great observations and important distinctions on the whole 'visualization of the target' and 'resulting focus & intention' .. I tried to allude to it a bit as well .. but that's not my strongest suit -- and it's best I leave it to you and others who can make better sense of it. I'm of the belief that there's a sort of dance between what a golfer can get working and predictable and the resulting setup to produce it consistently. Form following function and all that .. my hope is that taken together .. that your thoughts and mine can go to the heart of things.. the old .. "where am I at" vs. "where am I aspiring to be"? I know we've discussed aspects of this over the years.. I have come to believe that where one is swinging around in one's spine makes a difference in what available swing forms are going to fit it in terms of resulting motion. My recollection is that you see it differently .. and that's cool, I believe that 'trying to hit the ball' which is poison for certain forms .. let's say WIG included.. but are potentially desirable for swing forms that are more hands/arms.. well.. weeds this is where I jump off this ride (for now).. golf swings to me, are a continuum .. but that's me .. and may not be productive to explore .. time will tell as to whether this Crackpot Golf Theorist (World's Leading est .2011) has anything resembling a legit point of view. wishing you the best and always abide! cheers, k_f

      • #50
        Hi Alpine. I have seen that Waldron video. But yes I can see and feel when I swing I have a the Lawnmower pull going on. I think this is indeed what Ken was talking about above. Im not wide and out in front.

        Even with that 'lawnmower pull with right arm'. You are right about that. Even though I promise you my swing thought is not around the body. It is very similar to how Waldron describes. But I think in lazy ease of motion im pulling in with right arm. Yes agreed.

        To be honest looking into it now it feels very comfy to have my right arm at my side rather than out in front. So is that a reaction to the EE or the cause or bad intent somewhere up the line?

        Ok plenty to work on and you have indeed clarified Kens point.

        Kid my old mate. Thanks for the post.

        you'll see his start a bit higher relative to your 'top' .. but find their way 'down' more or less to where your hands are and their way back 'through' or 'around'..

        Im really hoping the new body swing intent will allow me to do this and get width.

        do you want to just play with what you have .. or are you trying to perfect something that may take a long time to work out .. and potentially make it harder to enjoy playing

        Im not going to stop until I feel I can make a golf swing with proper true intent that I understand. I have taken many many years to get this far and I have no intention of stopping now. I can speak 'golf' so suggestions and ideas are quite easily communicated. That is why I welcome all comments. Nope im not going to settle for shooting between 7-14 over par.

        Once I sort the EE out (and I will sort it out) then I will be low single figs and look like it. Im 100% convinced. I play many sports that require rotation and if I time the stand through my EE you can see the ball goes miles. But I know that this is not correct. It is all about the physics and matching the intent to the physics. Im pretty much certain I dont have any physical limitations even though you have compared me to Beef Johnson hahahha.

        I must lose weight. The top makes me look bigger than I am hahhahaha.

        It did take a bit of corrage to share my swing. Its not easy to admit that you have been pivoting wrong, too handsy and stand up through the ball. But you guys are helping me and im way further down the rabbit hole. One day im gonna work out the swing force that avoids the EE and start ripping drives but with a way smaller margin of error. My eyes are always on that prize. I know im never gonna be Rory on tour but if I can understand what is required then I can at least see what im capable of with the proper intent.

        Ok love it guys. Will report back.

        Cheers Ken, Alpine and Kid.

        Just saw your post Costa. Always love your input. Never offended.

        You gave me a lot of information there. Ill work my way through it. Problem is that feel aint always real. I have many times denied I do something because I dont feel I do it. Id probably deny my EE without having videoed it hahahah. So im way past being precious. I very well could be ball focused. I dont feel I am but I know all too well that I could be.

        I will look through your stuff and post soon.

        Many thanks Costa
        Last edited by Gmonkey; 03-22-2019, 10:16 AM.


        • kid_fullerene
          kid_fullerene commented
          Editing a comment

          appreciate your consideration of my ramble.. and absolutely no inference intended by using 'Beef's' swing as a model - it was just something where you could see how he put the club into play in transition.. vs. how Stricker did it..

          to maybe blend a bit of what the Dude was sharing with what I'm hoping to illustrate is get a notion of how you're visualizing your actual alignment to your target and resulting flight. Again this is coming from an 'eye-hand' guy .. so it may not speak to you .. but I never could get a lot of this being 'open vs. closed' and clubhead relative to such and such until I literally marked everything out and could help myself visualize things. That may not work best for you .. but I believe that until you get a sort of objective distance of how you see what you see .. it's tough to get a sense of any sort of useful analysis.

          I guess to me . until I had some kind of useful context .. and understood how I was arriving at that context .. trying stuff was like fighting the tide .. whatever I built would eventually be washed away ..

          and yep, still can and does happen.. but less of it now.. and longer lasting and better learning & understanding..

          your path may vary but I suspect will be just as valid ..

          all the best


      • #51
        In the old forum it was a nice tradition, to use Shawn to explain it by posting a respective video.
        Here we go.
        That simple exercise at the beginning of the video is a fantastic and easy understandable way to realize the link between body turn, width and collapsing arms.


        • #52
          Might be onto it at last. Once I kept a gradual build up in the swing combined with the new hip intent my cns seemed to demand an upswing. The second pendulum upswing did feel a lot different and certainly made my old action feel at the ball.

          I have tried this before but my hips were wrong so I ruled it out due to push shots. In combo with the rotation I got nice pearcing ball flight.

          My phone ran out of space but I’m hopeful. The sound of the iron strikes and feel was great.

          i noticed with driver I was taking the ball clean off the tee. I’ve never done this before. Literally I could launch it and the tea would be still there mo Norman style 🤣😂🤣😂.

          this just feels right. It’s a lovely action through the swing and feels very natural.

          As as I approach the shot the pressure on the shaft feels the left side of the shaft not right.

          ive definitely swung like this in the past but the linear hips has ruined it for me.

          ill video it and see if this is the one.


          • #53
            Looking forward to the video, Gmonkey. Never thought about the second pendulum swing in the upswing/backswing before. I bet this aids your back turning towards the target or getting your arm club unit out of the way!

            My feel of the second pendulum swing on the downswing helps my arm club unit get through the ball and at the target!


            • #54
              Hi guys,
              IF one's "focus" is TARGET-oriented, the "2nd pendulum" in the backswing will be AUTOMATIC?
              The circular Energy will create that 2nd pendulum as the club passes the "maximum extension to the rear"...(rear of WHAT? rear AWAY from the TARGET?)
              The swing HINGES itself going back? The swing UN-hinges itself going FORWARD.
              (notice that there's no reference to going "DOWN"???)

              So, Ron.....If you have never contemplated the 2nd pendulum in the BACK-swing? I view that as a POSITIVE that you've never had to contemplate before!!

              dude abides
              "OLD" Forum Participation

              Entry Date: 18-JAN-2011
              Posts: 1813
              Thank You: 1048

              "Be water, my friends"


              • #55
                Ok guys just got back from Tenerife. Played ok not nearly as well as I had hoped. New swing ideas clearly not correct.

                Decided not to treat the fabulous courses as a driving range so just enjoyed the golf. Shot 14 over on this course.

                Swing looks awful but it was enough for me to get round and enjoy it. Hotel was great, free bar, free food and great group.

                Check out the ocean hole. You can just about see my ball land. Missed the birdy but a tap in par.

                Ron listen to Costa not me. The second pendulum idea didnt do it for me. Still check out this hole.

                Speak soon guys.

                Edit....Notice I cheat the early extention with a double knee bend instead of the stand. hahahha thats clearly not correct but that my cns trying another work around. hahahaha. That is even tougher than timing the stand. lol. I need to sort this.

                Last edited by Gmonkey; 04-01-2019, 07:54 AM.


                • #56

                  Im going to try this.


                  • #57
                    Ok way too much hip rotation in my swing on the backswing creating stupid amounts of shoulder turn. Can see a few things in this action and analogy.

                    I can see the path of his swing reacting much lower in his body than mine.

                    Last edited by Gmonkey; 04-01-2019, 11:47 AM.


                    • #58
                      Ok chaps. Totally revamped my pivot. Allowing myself to get onto right side in the backswing for once. Has stopped the left leg knee problem. I pivot into the right foot now and I think I understand what the spine does. It is indeed exactly like a pichers throw. I think a bunch of us try and swing around the spine and clearly thats not whats going on.

                      Finally think I have got the braced tilt down. Im definately feel the change in weight to front and feel that line posting from head through to lead foot. My hips clear upwards which is clearly what they should be doing.

                      Also this feels natural to have arms out in front. I can also see now how arms can lift. My compact swing has not been a choice it has been a result.

                      So all these changes has given my CNS a chance to do its thing.

                      What im struggling with now is unfortunately the number one mantra of WIG. That is 'Swing to Target'. Im much more happy with 'hammer the nail into the door frame' as that allows me to drop and unload the lag through the turn.

                      However im finding it very hard to reconsile hammering through with a swing to target. This now seems contadictory.

                      What is Shawn meaning by 'Swing to target' because I think I may have got that very wrong in the past. If he is talking about catching the ball early in the lag release then ok. But to call that a swing to target hmmmmm. Thats more a feel of crushing the ball.

                      I have definately taken a good few steps further down the rabbit hole. Its actually baffles me how wrong my pivot was.

                      Anyway lets try and define swing to target because now im thinking I got that one real badly wrong.
                      Last edited by Gmonkey; 04-17-2019, 07:09 AM.


                      • #59
                        Hey Greg...
                        (hi guys?)

                        Let's not confuse facts from fiction?

                        "Swing to Target" is a LAW.

                        "Hammer the Nail" is a suggested TACTIC that hopes to help you COMPLY with the LAW?

                        It's like setting out on a trip, understanding that you have to travel essentially WESTerly…..

                        But, what happens if, when you turn out of your driveway, you have to turn EASTerly???

                        If you focus on where you are ultimately going, the initial/early deviations don't make any difference...

                        Love this place and you guys

                        dude abides

                        "OLD" Forum Participation

                        Entry Date: 18-JAN-2011
                        Posts: 1813
                        Thank You: 1048

                        "Be water, my friends"


                        • #60
                          I’m trying Costa. I think I have got the pivot down now but seems that my old release isn’t compatible.

                          im certain I have been swinging to target.

                          the nail thing was hit and miss.

                          i feel I need more rotation in the swing through the ball.

                          good news is that body rotation and spine is much much better. The correct release will come.

                          It’s hard to let go of old habits