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  • #91
    Originally posted by Gmonkey View Post
    Hi Cally mate. I’m struggling to get Shawns weight videos you posted.

    When you power throw a ball you move over your right hip. You don’t back to target with the feel of lead leg one leg swing. Nobody throws like that.

    Same with the feet together thing. The feet together drill stops you going from right hip to left.

    Im going to take a look at Sean’s swings to see if he actually does this in his real swing. I don’t see one tour swing that complies to those videos.

    Ill look into this because odds on I’m wrong. I’m an early extender and Shawn is border line genius. But look at Rory’s hip action et al. They do not do what is being suggested here?
    Gmonkey,

    I don't want you to get lost in this weight pressure transfer stuff, it just looked to me that you were moving weight pressure more out toward your toes, and I thought that was part of the early extension issue.

    With what you're saying above, as far as how Shawn does this, in the transition he talks about "getting the ground" with the lead leg, and then using the lead leg to "retract" the lead side in the downswing.

    Just to give you a different perspective about what I was trying to describe with the pressure moving from the rear heel into the lead heel in the transition, and essentially creating more depth with the hips, here's a Monte video that basically shows the same idea of the weight pressure shift happening from behind you in the transition . . .



    Again, I don't want you to get lost in this Gmonkey, I was just trying to point out that your early extension could very well be caused, at least in part, by what's happening with your footwork and pressure transfer.

    Comment


    • #92
      There is definitely something in what you are telling me Cally. It’s down to me to understand it.

      My backswing hip turns incorrectly and moves toward ball on downswing. I also see they good players extend but not at the same time as me.

      Ok mate . I’ll post soon. Hips are key. And hips are weight distribution. Agreed. Work to do.

      I have sorted the thumb off issue as per shrodinger post but am still struggling to get correct tempo as per kids post. But the hips is the key to it all I think and weight distribution error must be the issue. Agreed

      Speak soon

      Comment


      • Cally
        Cally commented
        Editing a comment
        Yes, how the hips move is key!

        Basically what we are talking about here is getting more depth with the hips when the pressure moves into the heels. Hip depth in the backswing with pressure in the rear heel, and essentially a little more hip depth in the transition that's maintained well into the downswing with pressure in the lead heel. This gives you the ability to keep rotating through the ball while having the space you need to swing your arms.

        Bottom line is maintaining hip depth keeps you from encroaching the space between you and the golf ball, both in the backswing, the transition, and the downswing. And when you maintain this hip depth and space between you and the ball there's no need to early extend!

        I know it's all easier said than done, but I think you will get this Gmonkey!

    • #93
      Originally posted by Gmonkey View Post
      Hi Cally mate. I’m struggling to get Shawns weight videos you posted.

      When you power throw a ball you move over your right hip. You don’t back to target with the feel of lead leg one leg swing. Nobody throws like that.

      Same with the feet together thing. The feet together drill stops you going from right hip to left.

      Im going to take a look at Sean’s swings to see if he actually does this in his real swing. I don’t see one tour swing that complies to those videos.

      Ill look into this because odds on I’m wrong. I’m an early extender and Shawn is border line genius. But look at Rory’s hip action et al. They do not do what is being suggested here?
      Gmonkey,

      I hope you're not tired of hearing from me, but since you mentioned Rory's hip action I just did a search, and I found this video where Rory himself explains and shows the move he makes in the transition . . . his first move in the transition is to shift pressure into the lead side which happens while his arms and club are still at the top of the backswing. It's essentially a little squat move where he puts pressure into the lead leg before anything happens with the arms/club . . .



      Now each person will look a little different, and each person may have a different feel in the transition, but I would argue that Shawn and Rory are essentially doing the same thing, i.e., the pressure shifts from the rear side into the lead side while in the transition. Shawn describes this as the weight shift happening from behind us while others might simply describe the shift in pressure as a squat to start the downswing.

      At any rate, here's one more Shawn video that I thought might help you with engaging the kinetic chain (with some drills in it), and the pressure shift from the rear side to the lead side where (just after the 9:00 mark) Shawn again clearly demonstrates that the weight shift happens from behind us as he says that he comes back from behind to get to his left heel . . .



      Again not everyone will look like the same, some will be look seamless or more subtle than others, but I believe a pressure shift from the rear side to the lead side is happening in the transition.

      I'll go away now.

      Comment


      • #94
        Now you might already be aware that I am a golf nerd when it comes to biomechanics stuff , so I sort of look at all the varying opinions from people who seem to know (or claim to know) a lot more about the physics and biomechanics of the golf swing. And there are so many opinions that it would drive one insane !!!!

        What I am explaining below theoretically explains right hip spinning and also EE.

        For example here is a video by Sasho Mackenzie (quite famous in his field and well respected for his research in biomechanics). What he says in this video is backed up by research from other respected people and they claim ground forces are the key to hip rotation and early extension.

        https://boditrakperformance.com/earl...stics-in-golf/

        Both agree that 'EE' is bad for irons but could be useful for driver clubhead speed, so that makes it complicated to decide whether it's a golf swing fault or not (I suspect the answer will be 'it depends').

        But then there are others who claim that pelvic rotation in the early downswing (ie . from top of backswing to left arm at 9 o'clock ) has nothing to do with generating rotation via shear forces between the feet and ground . They claim that what you feel on the ground is a reaction to muscular contractions in your pelvic hip girdles. If you imagine there are 'elastic band' type muscles connecting as shown below (rear view- muscles represented by the red and blue lines) , and you somehow weight pressure your body so that points 2 and 4 are relatively fixed in space. Then you contract those muscles , it would rotate the left side of your pelvis around your right leg away from the target line (until pelvis is square to target line). That rotation of the pelvis will cause an equal and opposite rotation on your right leg/foot and you would then feel a shear force between the foot and ground , but this is a reaction to pelvic rotation .

        But the rest of the pelvic turn from 9 o'clock to follow-through are caused by ground forces (because your pelvic muscles have already 'maxed' out and cannot rotate the pelvis anymore)

        That subtle difference in the biomechanics of the pelvic rotation in the early downswing can make the difference between having enough space to swing your arms through to target or worse, a 'right hip spin' and an OTT. Even more problematic would be if you shifted too much weight onto your left leg in the early downswing and contracted those same red/blue lined muscles on the left side of your pelvis. What do you think would happen to the pelvis in that scenario? The right side of your pelvis would rotate away from the target line, so you would have no option but to use your right glute to extend your right leg and help push your right hip towards target line (hey presto! a nice early extension goat humping move).

        Hope this makes sense! But the easy way is to use external focus and let your body find its path of least resistance to meet your intended task .

        Thinking about ground forces and specific contractions of pelvic girdle muscles would, as Shawn said on many occasions, short circuit your kinetic sequence. But I do like understanding the logic of what is happening to our body to make tasks happen (but the problem is figuring out which opinion is closer to the truth).

        Click image for larger version  Name:	LRPPelvisAnatomyThree.jpg Views:	0 Size:	33.0 KB ID:	12646


        PS. Here is a video which explains it better than me.






        Last edited by Schrodinger; 06-28-2019, 06:18 PM.

        Comment


        • #95
          Gmonkey,

          I've watched your videos about fifty times, at full speed and at 25 percent speed, and I think I have the solution to your issues. Give what I suggest a try to find out. If I'm wrong, you'll know pretty quickly and you can go back to what your working on. I suggest you do the first part of this away from the range and then try it hitting balls.

          This is what I gleamed from watching the videos: Your swing motion is very good. All the elements of a full, solid, powerful swing are there. I don't see anything in your motion that is causing the problem. So it must be something else. And I think that something else is in your set up. Your set up, specifically your posture, looks technically sound, but it does not look athletic. I think you are standing too upright and not using your quads. In effect, you are setting up in a way that you are fighting the anatomy of your hips, trying to force them to do something they don't want to do. Try setting up in a way that matches your anatomy, and fees up your hips.

          To my eye, you need to sit back in your stance, almost like your sitting down on a stool behind you an feel your quads activate. That's just a semi-educated guess on where you'll end up, but you need to find the set up that matches your anatomy.

          So, how do we find the set up that matches your anatomy?

          Here are three different tests for you to try. I suggest you go through them in the order presented. When I do these tests, the three results are very similar. This part you can do away from the range.

          1. Watch this video from Fred Shoemaker, particularly from 1:00 to 2:15 and give his test a try. The video is from a TV show, so they rush through the process. Take your time, do it a number of times, and really focus awareness on how your body feels, where the muscles are activated, and how the athletic set up differs from your current set up. Pay attention to the small stuff. (When I do this, I note that my knees turn in about an inch when I'm fully engaged. I tried relaxed knees and engaged knees on the range and engaged knees work a bit better for me. So the small stuff is important.)

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSceQUp9yzo

          Try moving while doing the test. Pretend you are a basketball player and you are guarding Lebron James driving the lane. Move left and right. Or pretend you are a goalie in football/soccer and you have a player charging you with the ball.



          2. Take your stance and jump straight up as high as you can and land solidly on your feet. Hold your LANDING position. Be aware of your posture, which muscles are activated and your balance. (When I do this, I end up very close to where I end up after doing the test in the video above.) Do this several times. You can start from your current set up and from the one you find from doing the video test. It's the landing position that's important.

          3. Take a fairly heavy object--your full golf bag works well--get in your new stance, palms up and hold your golf bag in your arms. Swing it back and forth, like you are going to toss it in a lake after a bad round. Pay particular attention to your hips--are they freed up? Try the same thing with your current set up--which is more powerful and stable?

          After you have found an athletic set up, take it to the range. It will feel strange for a while. Do the perpetual motion drill from the new set up focus your awareness on your balance and how your hips move. Then step up and hit a ball. When I first did this, I hit a lot of shots about half an inch toward the toe. It took a short while for my perception to change and to start hitting shots in the center of the club face. The motion felt very good, but the new set up looked different to my eye and I had to adjust.

          When I do this, my feet end up in the same position that they do when following Shawns set up advice about standing on one leg and dangling the other to find your natural hip position. But my posture is quite different from my old set up.

          Give that a try. I may be full of crap. If so, I won't be offended by you saying so after trying it. But the suggestion is offered genuinely. It may solve your issues.




          Comment


          • #96
            Alfriday welcome to the thread. I always listen to any contributions. Thanks. I’ve always had that hunched look. It’s a combo of bad posture and rounded shoulders. I’ll look at those excersises and feedback.

            shrode.... you took it beyond a level my mind can cope with. I’m hanging on to the belief that correct intent will correct the way body parts work. It’s not a blind belief because I can throw a tennis ball, launch a fishing lead smash a badminton shot with no EE and massive separation. Also my right hook ain’t to bad hahaha. Your thumb suggestion has taken me down the rabbit hole a few more feet tho. That confirmed I was still too lateral. I can now hinge without the thumb off. Feels good.

            Cally, always love to hear from you buddy. Shawns turn in the backswing sure has stumped me. All I can think of is that he must rejoin the area of leverage over the right hip on his way back around. I mean a full turn like that could not throw a javelin or a punch or a ball. I notice his pitching video turn is nothing like that. I fully admit I don’t understand his move there. I bet he understands this point and has an answer.

            so what I’m working on is more of the throwing action to target. That is a true throw where the right arm almost gets to the ball before the three right hand throw kicks in. The evolution of shrodingers point has led me here.

            My balance is still poor (cally) and tempo not right (kid).

            so from rotary inside swing feel with too much lateral ive gone to correct thumb but over the top chop and now will go thumb secure throw with feel of right elbow lead. This feels and looks as if the club path almost changes direction through the strike. Certainly the centrepeal pull is later in the swing and that’s what I’m hoping will address the EE.

            I did hit some storming drives with the over hand chop but it ain’t right. I’ll post a drive that I measured at 278 yards that I videoed.

            I honestly think I may have worked out what the throwing action looks like in the swing and Shawn DEFINITELY does it. It’s just his hips and ass turn that I question.

            Comment


            • #97
              Over the top thumb secure attempt to cure EE. Tomorrow throwing action on downswing attempt to cure EE

              https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-C0tqDBKJtA

              Comment


              • Cally
                Cally commented
                Editing a comment
                Greg,

                It still looks to me that you're not getting pressure into your rear heel in the backswing. And maybe I'm not seeing it clearly in this slow motion video, but in the transition it looks like your rear heel is actually lifted off of the ground a little bit. Am I seeing this right? What do you feel in your rear heel in this backswing and transition area?

                Then from the transition into the downswing it still looks to me that your posterior is moving off the tush line a good bit with the hips/pelvis encroaching the space between you and the ball. Also note how your lead heel spins back as you swing through. This is what I was talking about before about getting pressure into the lead heel.

                Regardless, 278 yards is a solid drive! Just curious what was the ball flight with what you said felt like an "OTT chop swing?"

            • #98
              Yeah Cally my right heel does lift and feels like it’s lifting .
              This was my one attempt at this swing.

              It’s a thumb on shaft swing upwards with the feeling of swinging behind me but the body takes it through the ball.

              ball flight is a 15 yard cut shot that starts slightly left of centre and heads right.

              my usual swing fault is a straight push if I don’t naturally time the standing up. In fact I’m pretty ok at timing the stand on cns. It’s when I try not to EE I get the faults .

              next version will be the arm throw release. I’m 100% sure my release is wrong as well as my weight.

              ive always been able to launch the ball quite far. Unlike most I have zero obsession with distance. I’m pretty certain to hit 270 ish every swing. My average club head is 106 mph ( I think ) on track man .


              On backswing I feel like I’m in the middle of my right foot. On transition (I think I’m move to left foot before I swing down) and then I stand up through the hit with my right foot lifting through the stand.

              So my EE saves the push with the inside version of this swing and the EE saves the pull with this over the top version.

              both require the stand through the hit to play well.

              thats the problem.

              All good players extend they just don’t do it when I do. Weight and release next changes. Report back


              speak soon
              Last edited by Gmonkey; 06-29-2019, 12:21 PM.

              Comment


              • #99
                Originally posted by Gmonkey View Post
                Yeah Cally my right heel does lift and feels like it’s lifting .
                This was my one attempt at this swing.

                It’s a thumb on shaft swing upwards with the feeling of swinging behind me but the body takes it through the ball.

                ball flight is a 15 yard cut shot that starts slightly left of centre and heads right.

                my usual swing fault is a straight push if I don’t naturally time the standing up. In fact I’m pretty ok at timing the stand on cns. It’s when I try not to EE I get the faults .

                next version will be the arm throw release. I’m 100% sure my release is wrong as well as my weight.

                ive always been able to launch the ball quite far. Unlike most I have zero obsession with distance. I’m pretty certain to hit 270 ish every swing. My average club head is 106 mph ( I think ) on track man .


                On backswing I feel like I’m in the middle of my right foot. On transition (I think I’m move to left foot before I swing down) and then I stand up through the hit with my right foot lifting through the stand.

                So my EE saves the push with the inside version of this swing and the EE saves the pull with this over the top version.

                both require the stand through the hit to play well.

                thats the problem.

                All good players extend they just don’t do it when I do. Weight and release next changes. Report back


                speak soon
                Greg,

                There's no doubt you can play some good golf with the swing you have, but I think with just a few refinements you can do even better!

                I agree with you that all good players extend . . . it's just that they extend later in the swing. I still think if you can get the sense of pressure moving more into your rear heel in the backswing and then into your lead heel in the downswing you will be better able to rotate through the ball without early extending. And I think if you work on creating and maintaining hip depth you will see better results.

                That said, I know you understand the early extension issue very well, I just thought I would put a few more videos in here that might help to include a couple on hip depth specifically, and also a couple more Shawn videos dealing with the lower body and footwork.

                First this one on hip depth in the backswing, transition, and well into the downswing, with a before and after student example of a good college player, and also a couple pro examples . . .



                Then this one is an example with Kevin Kisner, pointing out how he keeps his rear foot down well into the downswing, and how much depth he has with his lead hip in the downswing. Also the point is made in here about the importance of creating both "time" and "space" in the golf swing . . .



                Now back to a couple Shawn videos focusing on the lower body move (the squat move in the transition like Rory, et. al.) shifting pressure to "get the ground" to engage the kinetic chain to clear, and also the footwork . . .





                These are all things I've worked through myself. While my swing is still far from perfect, and in my case I don't have any illusions of ever having a staff bag with my name on it, I think if we can make even small refinements and improvements here and there we will see positive things happen!

                Comment


                • Hi Gmonkey

                  Maybe this old SC video might give you a few ideas. I did notice in the late backswing that your right elbow is tucked in close to your right side maybe because you feel more 'connected' in your early downswing.

                  The disadvantage of having such a folded right arm is that it's in a really powerful position to extend and you might be tempted to create power very early in the downswing which could risk active muscular wrist torque (ie. using the wrists to release the club rather than centripetal pull via your arms).This means you will probably release the club (and get peak clubhead speed) too early in the downswing rather than at /through impact. The premature straightening of the right arm/wrist before impact could also cause the clubface to flip or rotate too quickly as it approaches the ball and will need very precise timing to square the clubface by impact. You could get a whole variety of different shots dependent on your timing skills.



                  PS. Note what Shawn says is the 'true cause' in the video .
                  Last edited by Schrodinger; 06-30-2019, 09:23 AM.

                  Comment


                  • I worked on the weight today , my backswing and swinging to target.

                    I might have finally made the breakthrough. I’ve been dropping the club behind and getting the turn to unload the lag to target. This produces EE.

                    while i was working on weight (Cally) it seemed to make more sense to throw out from body and let the turn take it through the shot. This might be it.

                    So it’s not a downward throw it’s more of a sideways throw. I’m not great at sideways throws but I’m learning.

                    Are you guys throwing the club away from your centre of gravity and letting rotation take you through the club. For some reason extension is later in this swing. Probably when both arms straighten.

                    This is could be it. With this swing I don’t crash into my left side , the EE is after the ball is gone and the power is effortless. There is also no lateral temptation. I can now understand Shawns ability to make that huge turn in the backswing. He is heading out and down.

                    course was busy so next time video.

                    This could actually be it. I’m excited .

                    speak soon.

                    Comment


                    • Cally
                      Cally commented
                      Editing a comment
                      That's exciting Gmonkey!

                      I'm sure each person has a little different feel as to the throw, but for me it's more of a sidearm type of throw like a skipping the stone motion, and in my mind the down part is taken care of by gravity.

                      With what you experienced today, I imagine what you're getting with the weight pressure more into your heels rather than into your toes is a better rotation and a counterbalance with the posterior behind you while the arms are swinging more in front of your body rather than getting jammed up and stuck which would tend to happen with the lateral move you mentioned, causing you to stand up through the shot to save it. In short, it sounds like you now have more rotation with the space to swing the arms in front of you, and not so much of a lateral motion with the arms jammed or stuck behind you.

                      I sometimes hesitate to post too many videos, but I know of another weight transfer video that might help you seal the deal with this weight pressure stuff. If you would like me to post it for you just let me know.

                      I hope this is the breakthrough you've been looking for. I'm excited for you Greg!

                  • What you just wrote Cally is exactly how the new intent feels.

                    I have been trying to throw down the line when it is a sideways throw out infront and rotation takes it through.

                    This creates way more room. I always had the crashing look into my left side. Thats now gone.

                    I obsessively watched a video called over head golf swings. Shawn has a video on that too that i watched loads.

                    Anyhow I noticed how the club came around on the downswing and always questioned if mine did that. I was pretty sure it didnt.

                    Now im certain my downswing does this and I know its silly but when I swing now I can picture the Arnold Palmer overhead view hahahahaha.

                    I'll post soon as I get a chance to play.

                    Cant wait to show you guys. I really hope this is it.

                    Costa ....waits to judge hahahahaha

                    Ill post by end of week Cally. Ive literally been sneaking out to play 9 holes every day !!! hahahah Its June....Why not........well actually July now haha

                    Oh yeah and I understand Shawns backswing now......and John Daly move and Bubba. I know what they are doing.
                    Last edited by Gmonkey; 07-02-2019, 06:28 AM.

                    Comment


                    • just a heads up Cally. That video of Shawns with the 'golf bike hahaha' is outstanding. thanks.

                      Expands on what you were saying Alfriday athletic set up and ground up.

                      Comment


                      • Cally
                        Cally commented
                        Editing a comment
                        I agree, and all that we are talking about, e.g., using the ground; dynamic balance; pressure shift, all of this really starts with what "alfriday" mentioned, i.e., the posture at set-up . . . like engaging the quads, glutes . . . essentially a more athletic, dynamic address posture.

                    • Sorry I have not enough time to search today, but for me the best feeling of throwing the club is described in the video with the rope. If you exercise to sling that heavy rope, there is only one way to do that efficiently. That is exactly how to throw. BTW, you can only give the rope a good whip in direction to a target, if you hold back your activity, the whip happens quite late, more on the left side of the body for a right handed player.

                      Comment


                      • Hi Alpine

                        Is it this one?




                        But remember :
                        Replicating that feel with the club (ie. the feeling of pulling the rope through to target in the late downswing) is really teaching you how to dynamically swing your arms/club unit correctly in the early downswing

                        I know that sounds weird but it takes time for a subconscious action to be felt (ie. registered in the brain) and the golf downswing is so quick that what you felt in your hands near impact is a reflection of 'what you did' earlier.

                        To prove this , look at this image below where you can see there is forward bend in the shaft approaching impact (apparently this can be shown to happen in virtually all PGA pro golfers from 5-iron to Driver). This means that there is 'negative' torque in the hands and that means that the hands cannot keep up with the rotation of the club shaft . The hands are actually being pulled by the angular momentum of the club and end up resisting against the grip rather than pulling into impact (like that heavy rope).

                        The heavy rope feeling that you might replicate with a club is not a reflection of what is actually happening from a physics standpoint. It's GOOD golf instruction because that pull feeling 'intent' through impact might help other aspects of your golf swing (like getting out of the way or limiting any deceleration by hitting 'at' the ball instead of through to target), but the physics you see in that heavy rope (where its lagging through impact) is not what happens in a real golf swing.

                        Click image for larger version  Name:	flexWave2.gif Views:	0 Size:	126.3 KB ID:	12666
                        Last edited by Schrodinger; 07-10-2019, 05:26 AM. Reason: Wrong wording about 'prevent deceleration' . Corrected the sentence to make it more logical

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