Latest swing still inside. getting closer tho.

[Schrodinger]

Hi Alpine

Is it this one?

But remember :
Replicating that feel with the club (ie. the feeling of pulling the rope through to target in the late downswing) is really teaching you how to dynamically swing your arms/club unit correctly in the early downswing

I know that sounds weird but it takes time for a subconscious action to be felt (ie. registered in the brain) and the golf downswing is so quick that what you felt in your hands near impact is a reflection of 'what you did' earlier.

To prove this , look at this image below where you can see there is forward bend in the shaft approaching impact (apparently this can be shown to happen in virtually all PGA pro golfers from 5-iron to Driver). This means that there is 'negative' torque in the hands and that means that the hands cannot keep up with the rotation of the club shaft . The hands are actually being pulled by the angular momentum of the club and end up resisting against the grip rather than pulling into impact (like that heavy rope).

The heavy rope feeling that you might replicate with a club is not a reflection of what is actually happening from a physics standpoint. It's GOOD golf instruction because that pull feeling 'intent' through impact might help other aspects of your golf swing (like getting out of the way or limiting any deceleration by hitting 'at' the ball instead of through to target), but the physics you see in that heavy rope (where its lagging through impact) is not what happens in a real golf swing.

[Gmonkey]

Hi Guys im getting some good results but not sure if this is it or not.

I really need understanding of something important.

Im going to post two still pictures of Shawn in his chopping the tree video.

My question is about the release of the club. I need to be sure once and for all that my release intent is correct. See the plane change of the club shaft?

Please someone explain why that happens in great players and the false intent of others.

Is has surely got to do with release intent.

I can release anywhere or way I want. Someone just tell me where Shawns focus is in first pic that takes the plane down and not outwards.

Will this happen automatically in a true swing to target??????

Also just to clarify am I swinging the arms, shoulders, the hands or the weight of the club ???? I think this has profound outcomes.

So just to be clear Shawns shaft is lets say 45 degrees in fig one and that angle changes in the release. In bad players this angle dont change.

[Cally]

Hi Greg,

On your question about where is Shawn's focus in the first pic . . . I believe Shawn would tell us that from address and through the swing his focus is on a specific target, and where he wants the ball to start and end with the feel of his release to that target according to the shot he is playing (e.g., draw, fade, high, low). And I think he would say his release is "automatic" when he has this kind of target focus.

That said, I will first say that I don't have anywhere near the knowledge and understanding of biomechanics that Schrodinger does so what I have to say about the difference in pic 1 and pic 2 is more elementary in comparison as to why and how this plane change of the shaft happens between these two points in the swing.

So in pic 1 the shaft is "on plane" as he is approaching the point where the shaft is nearing the point where it's parallel to the ground. The inner part of his forearm is facing upward, palm of right hand toward the sky, which keeps the shaft "on plane" with the elbow leading . . . it's the skipping the stone motion. Then when the hands and butt of the club handle reach the point in front of the right thigh this is where the hands reach their lowest point.

We are now at the place where you start to see what happens in pic 2. As the hips continue to clear and open the hands and butt of the club move up and to the left. As the hands and butt of the club move up and to the left the shaft of the club accelerates down and out. Of course this happens in fractions of a second with the shaft plane changing from where it is in pic 1 to where it is in pic 2. They call this parametric acceleration where the hands/handle move up and the shaft moves down.

As this release is happening in fractions of a second Shawn's right arm pronates while his left arm supinates. Again, I don't believe Shawn is thinking about this stuff, it just happens "automatically."

Anyway, I probably didn't tell you anything that you don't already know, but this is my basic understanding of how the shaft changes between pic 1 and pic 2.

[Schrodinger]

That's a pretty elegant summary Cally.

[Gmonkey]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rQPHwskZL4


This guy is talking exactly about what im saying. He diagnoses the problem. Im not sure about his solution. Are top players really fighting forces ?????????

[Schrodinger]

Hi Gmonkey - Centrifugal force doesn't act on the clubhead. Bradley Hughes has got the physics wrong or is misinterpreting it.

As for Shawn's changing plane angle , there isn't an optimal way because many pga pros switch planes throughout their full swings and to different degrees. You said in bad players this angle doesn't change but check out Phil Mickelson if you get the chance. Then compare him with Sergio Garcia who drops onto a plane called the 'Hand Plane' . Also, how about one of the greatest ball strikers of all time 'Moe Norman' and Bryson DeChambeau (both of whom keep on a fairly constant plane in the downswing)?

I could try and explain what other 'experts' theorise about why PGA golfers do what they do , but its quite complex (nothing seems to be simple in golf when you look at biomechanics).

[Gmonkey]

Just looked at Phils swing. You are right shrode.

Hmmmm

[Schrodinger]

Here's a clue which you can try out yourself.

Hold the club in your straight left arm but create (as an extreme example) an angle of 90 degrees between it and the clubshaft . Then just rotate your forearm about 45 degrees clockwise and then anticlockwise . Watch the distance the clubhead moves in space and the orientation of the clubface as it opens and closes.

Then hold the club so that it makes 180 degree angle between your arm and shaft , then rotate your forearm about 45 degrees clockwise and anticlockwise. Do you see how little the clubhead travels in space ? But the clubface open and closes the same amount as in the first example. Also , does it seem a lot easier to rotate the club than the above example?

If you were a golfer and wanted to better control the opening and closing of the clubface 'per unit distance travel of the clubhead in space',which would you prefer? A smaller angle between the arm and clubshaft (ie. like Sergio Garcia) or one where the angle is quite large (like Phil Mickelson)?

If you look closely at Phil M's forearm as his driver approaches impact , he can quite easily rotate his forearm to square the clubface .In fact it is so easy that his timing has to be perfect for the clubface to be square at the exact moment of impact. He can easily overdo or underdo it which is why he sometimes has trouble finding the fairways with his driving.

There is a direct relationship between the pitching of the lead arm vs 'the preferred angle between the shaft and the lead arm' as the clubhead approaches impact with the ball (and they can all be different for each golfer).

There is a theory that golfers who have a smaller angle between lead arm and clubshaft means they can reduce the 'rate of rotation' of the clubface 'per unit travel of clubhead in space' as the clubhead approaches the ball.

The problem with that theory is that it didn't apply to Moe Norman (ie. had a large angle between arm and shaft) who was one of the most accurate ball strikers that ever lived.

[Gmonkey]

Thats interesting Shrode. So thats why its easier to square a shorter lenghth club??

Also so early release has vast variations on club face orientation.

hmmmmm ok.

I just dont wanna be holding off my release as a result of this. Its still got to be a dynamic action.

Bye the way I watched some other Bradley Hughes stuff and its good. He clearly agrees a lot with Shawn. It was just that video that isnt great.

I need to feel like the release is incidental to the ball and swing feels like after its gone (and upswing). I think my swing forces are way too much behind the ball and not enough target side.

Speak soon.

[Gmonkey]

I was watching the Tennis at the weekend. Amazing Wimbledon final Djokovic vs Federer. An absolute classic.

Anyhow I was facsinated with Djokovic backhand. I never played a double handed backhand but I was surprised at the racket face orientation. I mean I wouldnt be coming in face down to the ball. Id be coming face up and rotate. The difference in intent did not go unnoticed to me.

I dont know if this has anything to do with your post shrode but id require more rotation that Djokovic to play that shot. My swing plane would certainly be different and seeing as tho he is number one in the world and my backhand is patchy at best im perhaps thinking his intent is the correct one. hahahahahha.

Anyway all this ramble is ending up with me saying I could apply that swing path and face orientation to golf. Results may be interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIU_3TIUzDo

[Gmonkey]

If the golf swing is more of a top spin intent rather than backswing intent that could certainly help me EE.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Cally]

GM,

Shawn has talked about the backhand topspin release in a few videos, and since you mentioned watching tennis this past weekend . . . more specifically the backhand and top spin, here's a Shawn video showing the backhand topspin of Roger Federer, and how this applies to the golf swing . . .

[Gmonkey]

OMG Cally that video is EXACTLY what i was talking about !!!!

I think the confusion comes when I put two hands on the club.

Im going to swing the club from the right side and not centre. Just as you would a throw or tennis backhand. That is really going to make it easy for forearm to be skywards and release like the stone skip.

I bet this sorts out my EE also.

@3.38 there is no doubt whatsoever Shawn is coming though with the right side.

100% my linnear approach to golf has stopped this. Damn. Thats why I swayed. That was the fix.

Its a rotary swing (which I now have) with a throwing action release that is NOT central.

Talk about relevant videos Cally.

See you in the 19th . Drinks on me mate.

At 4.32 when he talks about the face squaring up I thought inertia (gravity) did that? That is why the club is the shape it is?? So the neutral grip could work?

No matter I get what he is saying and can easy implement that.

Now I see it it looks obvious doh !!!! So its not really like an olympic hammer throw. Its 100% more like a right sided javelin throw.

Its the two handed nature of the golf swing that has decieved me all these years. If it had been one handed I would have sorted this years ago.

[Cally]

GM,

Here's another Shawn video where he gets into more detail about the backhand topspin release with some drills and more analogies, plus how the anatomy works (pronation and supination of the arms) when you do this release . . . starting at the 4:40 mark . . .

[Gmonkey]

Hmmm. First attempt at right sided rotary swing. Still some EE but im not sure its as bad?

Ball is push draw and was measure at 278 in middle of fairway. To be fair im not trying to start it that right.

Im not crashing as much into left side and feel like I have all the space in the world.

Perhaps I could release with a bit more of the feeling the club is behind me.

Anyway that is the first drive I have hit for years that I didnt feel was central. There is certainly no need for sway with this swing.

I hope its just a case of marrying up the vertical drop and horizontal tug (Moe haha).

Anyway my thumb stays on (Shrode) and I aint crashing so much. Posture still aint athletic. I gotta make sure I got the hips right. Im going to review these videos again Cally. The nice thing is that I agree with everything Shawn is saying. I just need to implement it properly.

My friend commented that its been a long time since I last had a bad strike on the ball. Its just the direction. I mean every shot is nailed. Just can go left or right prob depending on the EE ??

Im looking at my takeaway and that seems still lateral focused. Hands need to remain out in front. Its got a bit better thanks to Shrode but still looks way more lateral than should be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSiIByViuLs

[Schrodinger]

Hi Gmonkey - I agree with your friend that you are definitely hitting it solid. I don't think there is much wrong with your swing apart from judgement where the ball has to be positioned to fit your 'dynamic swing'.

I was playing yesterday with my friend who used to have a great natural swing in his teens but lost his way after listening to various 'golf instruction'. He has been concentrating for years on making a big shoulder turn and lost sight of any focused intent on an outcome. He has basically short circuited his CNS and not automatically engaged all the right muscles to achieve a task (other than those needed to get a big shoulder turn in the backswing) . He has not engaged any muscles needed for the forward swing and his swings are very weak and usually a feeble high push slice to the right. Not good for a 6ft 4 inch 19 stone grown man.

I told him to just make perpetual swings over an intermediate target , sense where the ball needed to be in the blur of his clubface to meet his intent. Then just trust his perpetual swing and focus swinging the clubface over an intermediate target 6 inches in front of the ball. He started ripping it straight away and couldn't believe it . Then the next 3 or 4 swings he defaulted back to his old ways because of bad habits (internal focus for nearly 20 years can be a bad habit to break).

I think that's all you need to do now , just a small tweak in your judgement of where the ball needs to be in the blur of your clubface through the impact zone. Then just trust your swing , forget about a stationary ball and let rip to a target.

Check out Shawn's recent video - that might help with your ball positioning to meet your intent with the driver.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAU2tIwasy4

One really has no choice but to position the ball to match your dynamic swing because (imho) you get forward shaft bend and clubhead droop as it moves through the impact area . Setting up with some notion of ball position without knowing whether it fits your dynamic swing means that you somehow know 'before you swing' how much forward shaft bend and clubhead droop is going to occur.


PS. I hope you don't mind Gmonkey but I pointed out your you-tube swing videos to a 'biomechanics theorist' and this is what he says about your original swing 'Hip Thrust At Ball 21:06:2019 ' .

"I do not see any evidence of early extension and I think that he has a good rotary pelvic motion."

[Cally]

Greg,

That does look like a solid strike! I still see the early extension, but it doesn't seem to be as much.

Schrodinger,

I'm not sure what the 'biomechanics theorist' is seeing or means by not seeing any evidence of early extension.

Just to clarify, what I mean by early extension is when the tush moves off of the "tush line" (in this case in the transition), and the hips/pelvis encroaches the space toward the ball causing a stand up move through impact.

[Schrodinger]

Hi Cally

Yes the definition is virtually the same as your description.

"Early extension is
i) when the right buttocks prematurely leaves the tush line and
ii) the golfer simultaneously loses his anterior pelvic tilt thereby decreasing the spinal bend inclination angle (as seen from a DTL view) during the early downswing.

Maybe its a timing issue because I remember EA Tischler (another biomechanics theorist) defining EE differently too.

[Gmonkey]

Shrode.

wow you brought the experts in for me Hahaha.
so he was ok with my hip action. I’m very surprised.

on swing analysis. Here is where I am. My false intent was a lateral thought at the strike. I didnt have some of the more crazy ideas that the masses out there have. My power source was never a hit it was always a swing. I would play from anywhere to 5 over to 20 over par. I came to the conclusion that guys could never never play balls to a postage stamp doing what I was doing. I mean I’m fully on board that these are extreme talented individuals but they ain’t magic.

so I started my journey.

So now I’m in a good place. Last few weeks have been huge in progress.

im now rotary intent. This is massive massive step forward. You are key to this shrode hahaha. My grip doesn’t disconnect.

now I don’t think of the swing as central. Again I believe this is huge.

many many more of Shawns analogies now apply.

i thought I had EE . Maybe I don’t.

I need to experiment in ball position and release point as you say.

i think I’m at a point now that I can finally calm down on the self analysis. As you rightly say it’s a continuous battle to drop old habits. However I believe intent focus will help in this battle.

Cally. Your video suggestions remain amazing. I have watched the recent Shawn videos again and again.

i have noticed that my take away is still somewhat laterally focused but it’s all heading the right way. I’m talking about only 1hr to introduce all this !!!

i wonder if there is a straight line out there somewhere. I see possible evidence of this in Shawns sword slash. I mean a straight line intent with the natural release providing the rotation. Surely that’s the holy grail. That’s surely how I’d throw a javelin . Anyway maybe not.

im a lot closer than I ever have been and I’ve paid my dues. I’m not trudging of courses or driving ranges atm.

i do wonder if the average person would have bothered.

in fact I know the answer to that. Not many. I know it because of all the car crash swings that I see around .

I genuinely love the support and friendship I get from WIG and Shawn is as good as it gets .

have a great weekend

[Schrodinger]

Hi Cally

I found that EA Tischler video. It does seem that his definition of EE is different and he demonstrates it at 3:40 - 5:30 . So coming out of posture like 'Superman taking off' is not EE, it's a postural release depending on how your body naturally moves. He demonstrates different postural releases for different types of swings but he says it isn't EE (interesting).

Imho , even if you took off like Superman too early , that will still cause problems like 'getting stuck', shanks, flipping etc.

I'm not sure whether Gmonkey was early extending or not to be honest (it looked like he was but was that really a postural release)?

Biomechanics is just full of opinions but which one is closer to the truth? Ed Tischler talks about achieving 'linkage' before postural release , and if that occurs before the 'standing up' , then it's not EE. Complicated!!!!

PS. The other Biomechanics theorist defines EE only if it happens between P4-P5 position.

P4 position - end-backswing position



P5 position - when the left arm is parallel to the ground during the downswing action (end of the early downswing)

[Cally]

Hi Schrodinger,

The "postural release" idea is interesting! I guess there are many different ways of looking at things, and many different ways of defining things in the golf swing.

On the early extension issue, I just always went by maintaining the tush line through the shot. Like Shawn demonstrates in his Hogan Power Move videos where from the top of the backswing the right hip pocket remains in place as the left hip returns to the tush line.

Just for fun and a representation of what my idea of maintaining the tush line is, here's a short analysis of what many consider to be a model golf swing. You can see the hip depth that's created with the right hip (actually deeper than the original tush line) in the backswing, and how he stays on the tush line as the left hip returns to that line in the downswing. Also, the pressure shift from the rear heel at the top of the backswing into the lead heel before impact with a deep left hip (actually deeper than the original tush line), which means there is plenty of space to swing through as the lower body hips/pelvis continue to clear and not encroach the space toward the golf ball . . .

At any rate, not that my swing will ever look like Adam Scott's, but this example is what I had in mind when talking about what is early extension and what isn't early extension.

[Schrodinger]

makes perfect sense to me Cally :-)

[Cally]

Schrodinger,

Not to get sidetracked too much, but when it comes to the idea of maintaining posture through the swing this is something that I began to understand a while ago, and it's the idea that we don't really maintain forward posture through the swing . . . at least not in the sense of maintaining forward flexion. In fact, we are actually losing forward flexion and extending in the backswing while adding lateral side bend with rotation; and in the downswing we initially regain forward flexion, and as we rotate through the shot we replace the forward flexion by adding lateral side bend with extension. However, the tush remains on the tush line while these changes in flexion, extension, and side bends are happening as we rotate back and through.

Here's a link to a video that better explains what I mean . . . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTqlYvbql-U

I know you know all this stuff, but maybe like you said it is a timing issue when it comes to the idea of "postural release" and so long as you don't come out of posture so to speak in the transition or early in the downswing then it's not really early extension.

[Schrodinger]

Hi Cally - Nice video by the AMG guys using 'Gears' which explains what's happening to the orientation of the 'spine/ribcage/pelvis' quite nicely.

With regards that EA Tischler video , I referred it back to the other 'golf biomechanics' theorist to see if it matched his own opinion and he is virtually in 100% agreement (which imho is rare).

"Yes - I agree with his opinions regarding early extension and I think that he does a good job demonstrating that all golfers should keep their right buttocks abutted against the tush line between P4 and P5 to prevent early extension. He does not explain how to square the pelvis between P4 and P5 using the right-sided lateral pelvic rotator muscles while keeping the right buttocks back - but he does understand that it is useful to keep the right buttocks back to prevent the phenomenon of early extension (which happens between P4 and P5).

He also correctly explains that nearly all golfers will eventually develop posterior pelvis tilt in the later downswing and use a "standing-up" release phenomenon through impact, and he correctly shows that the timing of the "standing-up" release phenomenon will vary depending on how much you shallow the clubshaft between P4 and P6 (where under-arm golfers will delay their "standing-up" release phenomenon to much later in the downswing). I personally favor a side-arm or under-arm release pattern (where there is more body rotation during the pivot action) and I would encourage flexible golfers to avoid using the on-top pattern if at all possible. "

[Schrodinger]

Imho this is the best video that Shawn has produced and the one that has transformed my game. Maybe the only video I will ever really need to see.

Gmonkey - this might help your judgement about ball positioning to match your swing.