No announcement yet.

Latest swing still inside. getting closer tho.

  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Hi Gmonkey

    "I have just been letting my wrists uncock by the swing but its more than that its the rotary release of the second pendulum. I have to also get my backswing to match this intent."

    I'm guessing you are considering using active wrist 'torque' ?

    Imho, that is not a good idea (see below if you want to delve further using swing models that tested this out). Note the bolded statement at the bottom .


    "positive wrist torque causes the club to unfold early, and therefore causes the clubhead speed to peak early, and with a lower velocity. Common symptoms include a pronounced swishing sound that peaks before impact, drop-kicked shots (club ricochets off the ground before impact), shots with a high trajectory, and often problems with big high fades or slices. Researchers who have tracked the swing speed for golfers with a range of handicaps find that only golfers with low single-figure handicaps or better come close to hitting the ball at the peak clubhead speed. For most golfers, the club is decelerating through impact."

    Click image for larger version

Name:	wristtorque2.gif
Views:	119
Size:	16.3 KB
ID:	12705

    The chart above plots the approximate driving distance versus wrist torque with almost all other parameters kept the same. Remember that wrist torque has two effects on clubhead speed. It (a) peaks at a lower clubhead speed and (b) peaks earlier in the downswing.
    • The blue curve assumes that the golfer changes his swing so impact still occurs at the peak. We shorten or lengthen the swing so that impact will occur at maximum clubhead speed. This golfer is then only bitten by (a) above.
    • The red curve assumes that the golfer simply makes the same length swing no matter what the wrist torque. This golfer is then bitten by both (a) and (b). Negative wrist torque also costs distance because the clubhead speed peaks after impact (i.e., impact is at the black line in the curve above).
    Even if we assume that the ball is hit at the peak head velocity (blue curve), the difference between a beginners swing (10% wrist torque) and a swing with no wrist torque is about 20 m in distance. More typically the beginner will take the same backswing as a low handicap golfer and lose the distance indicated by the red curve – nearly 40 m!

    This is a very tough lesson, yet all of us have experienced the occasion when we relax, try not to hit a ball too hard, and hit the best drives of our lives. Learn to relax, to shorten your grip, and not to use your hands.
    Attached Files


    • Gmonkey
      Gmonkey commented
      Editing a comment
      I dont follow you Shrode. @6.00 in the Shawn video I posted above he performs a classic badminton smash action with right hand one hand grip on the club. He explains the rotation im talking about in this element of the video. What he is demonstration is how to perform a throwing action while holding a long lever.

      I cant follow your analysis. Im too dumb.

    • Schrodinger
      Schrodinger commented
      Editing a comment
      Hi Gmonkey

      When there is forward shaft bend on the club in the late downswing , you can try and uncock your wrists as fast as you like but you will never be able to increase clubhead speed (the club is moving too quickly 'rotationally' for your hands to physically keep up unless you are exceptionally strong). When I mean 'rotationally' see that green line in the attached file image above.

      The problem I find when I actively try and uncock my wrists (ie. radial to ulnar deviation) is that my forearms tend to rotate faster , and that means a high 'rate of clubface rotation' (making squaring the clubface by impact more difficult- your timing will need to be perfect). Also I might develop a habit of uncocking my wrists too early in the downswing and cause a 'casting' fault in my swing.
      Last edited by Schrodinger; 08-16-2019, 11:49 AM.

  • Originally posted by Gmonkey View Post
    I have just been letting my wrists uncock by the swing but its more than that its the rotary release of the second pendulum.

    You might like this unlisted video that Shawn did for the feel of "the rotary release of the second pendulum" . . .


    • Gmonkey
      Gmonkey commented
      Editing a comment
      Ive seen something by Shawn thats like this. I couldnt apply this because you need rotary intent for this to work. Basically on a lateral swing intent you simply would never swing the club on the correct relationship to the club face. So now this makes perfect sence. My mind now understands how this action squares the face through release. That is a very important piece of the jigsaw i missed.

    • Schrodinger
      Schrodinger commented
      Editing a comment
      There are a few ways to square the clubface.

      1. Whole left arm can actively rotate
      2. The forearms can rotate (both left and right)
      3. The 'Ryke Effect'
      4. A mix of all the above.

      The 'Ryke Effect' will feel as if the clubface is being squared automatically (with very passive forearms/wrists) and to all intents and purposes , you might think it is 'gravity' doing that (but it isn't - it's the clubs inertia and its very complicated to explain). Even the guy (Kevin Ryan) who discovered this phenomenon several years ago , has not yet found a mathematician to figure it all out to his satisfaction (which is why he has delayed the publication of his book). Kevin Ryan can explain the squaring part but he wants to know whether there is proof that this same effect can also increase clubhead speed.
      Last edited by Schrodinger; 08-16-2019, 12:11 PM.

  • There are quite a few different hand release actions being advocated out there (as well as Shawns baton twirl analogy). But which ones are more natural and do any of them create more clubhead speed or accuracy of strike? Which ones would require more exquisite timing than the other?

    1. AJ Bonar - rolling hand release left hand facing the sky . Actually this is active left/right forearm rotation through impact (with maybe a bit of rotation of the left/right humerus).

    Click image for larger version  Name:	BonnerMagicMove.jpg Views:	0 Size:	37.5 KB ID:	12708

    2. Robert Baker - Flipping Hand Release - left wrist allowed to bend through impact as right wrist straightens

    Click image for larger version  Name:	BakerNonDHTwo.jpg Views:	0 Size:	30.9 KB ID:	12709

    3. A mix of 1 and 2 above

    4. Flat Left Wrist Rolling through impact like Rickie Fowler (even when his right arm and wrist are straightening)- whole left 'humerus/forearm' rotation happening immediately post impact at the shoulder joint.

    Click image for larger version  Name:	FowlerHandReleaseAction.jpg Views:	4 Size:	40.0 KB ID:	12713

    5. These similar hand release actions by Stenson, Thomas, DJ and many more doing the following:

    a. Flat Left Wrist through impact for several inches post impact
    b. Clubface square to its curvilinear path for several inches post impact
    c. No independent forearm supination for those several inches post impact
    d. Whole left arm moving (and rotating enough to keep the clubface square to its path) at the same angular velocity as the club for several inches post impact

    Click image for larger version  Name:	StensonDHerTwo.jpg Views:	0 Size:	40.2 KB ID:	12710

    Click image for larger version  Name:	ThomasDHerTwo.jpg Views:	0 Size:	41.3 KB ID:	12711
    Last edited by Schrodinger; 08-16-2019, 11:53 AM.


    • Forgot to add one more important hand release action.

      This is where the clubface is kept square to its curvilinear path post impact for a long distance in the follow-through like Mike Bennett or Ben Hogan or Charlie Hoffmann.

      This would require quite a bit of flexibility but now you can see there are many ways to release your hands/arms , so you just have to find one that fits you.

      Click image for larger version

Name:	BennettNoRollRelease.jpg
Views:	308
Size:	54.7 KB
ID:	12715

      Click image for larger version

Name:	HoffmannFollowthrough.jpg
Views:	255
Size:	69.4 KB
ID:	12716


      • Hi Gmonkey

        If you are interested, here is a demonstration of the Ryke effect

        Although Kevin Ryan hasn't detailed what causes that 'FORCE' (in the video), I can suspect its the pitching of the lead arm in the late downswing.

        As you can see , the model of the golf swing using a 'double pendulum' is flawed because there is ulnar restriction (ie. the 2nd hinge is basically blocked by your wrist bone structure). You have no choice but to either rotate your forearms and allow your wrists to move in an anatomically safer way.

        But if you have a very strong grip , like Jamie Sadlowski, you will need upper and lower body flexibility to keep rotating through impact without reaching that ulnar deviation restriction. I suspect if you don't have that flexibility and you stall your pivot, your CNS is going to going to try and prevent you from reaching that restriction by chicken winging your lead arm through impact.

        Jamie Sadlowski doesn't use the Ryke effect and there is no need for him to rotate his forearms to square the clubface (because of his very strong grip and his amazing flexibility). Note he has got a 'bent lead arm' through impact and way into his follow-through but that's not due to pivot stalling but possibly utilisation of something called 'parametric acceleration' (another issue altogether and I think he does it intuitively rather than using any physics concepts). But because he swings so fast, maybe he is trying to avoid that ulnar deviation singularity (not 100% sure).

        Click image for larger version  Name:	SadImpact.jpg Views:	1 Size:	10.2 KB ID:	12790

        Hope the above makes sense but the double-pendulum , as a model, has its limitations.
        Last edited by Schrodinger; 08-17-2019, 07:38 AM.


        • Schrode That Reyker effect looks facsinating mate.

          It hurting my head though.

          I can see how it works in the model pendulum. Its a reverse gravity drop.

          What I cant see is how it works in the swing because the gravity conditions are not the same in the model as in the swings. That is the drop seems at different angles etc..

          What im saying is I can see how this works on the model but I cant see how this is working in the swing. They dont seem to match up.

          That reminds me of something I hear about 16 years ago that there was force acting on the club head that kicked it out like a bus turning a corner at speed.

          The only way I can see that working is late on in the swing. So I would be swinging closer to my body and the kick out would be through the ball. Indeed this would explain the hit the 'inside of the ball thing'.

          The resulting look of this does look 100% like the baton swing action. and as you said this is force driven not torque driven which I always prefer for consistency reasons.

          Ill try this Schrode.

          Im still not sure how the gravity situation in the model is replicated in the golf swing. It looks more like an inverted path that corrects itself via gravity. I cant see an inverted path in the golf swing.

          I might need a bit more chat about how this works mate.

          I get the Shawn release the baton analogy. But this aint quite that is it. The release the batton in more like a coordinated drop and roll all be it gravity driven.

          Your model looks like a hinge swing that has found a way of using the correct plane to unhinge and rotate through the shot. If that is really a posibility then it sounds like the holy grail.

          Some hand path drops of players have always made me question if something like this is happening.

          I need more chat about it before I can accept it . hahhahaha


          Last edited by Gmonkey; 3 weeks ago.


          • Schrodinger
            Schrodinger commented
            Editing a comment
            Hi Gmonkey

            I'm still waiting for Kevin Ryan's book (3 years overdue) to explain what moves the golfer has to make to evoke the Ryke effect , although I have a basic idea.

            Do some small pendulum type swings up to waist level to and fro but on the downswing (as you feel the dynamic weight of the club) , pitch your left arm slightly more vertical (closer to your body) and you might feel the ryke effect happening (causing a passive rotation of your lead forearm helping you square the clubface). I suspect many golfers do it naturally without knowing they are doing it.

        • Looking at Shaws Bartton twirl and that kick out video I’ve watched a few swings and it might just be an over the top kick out.

          That would allow the early hip turn and also stop the late release issue.

          id laugh (or perhaps) cry if that was it Shrode Hahaga


          • Hi Shrode,

            I spent all night thinking about that video with the hinge and gravity rotation.

            I thought that in order to apply that to a golf swing you would have to initiate the release way earlier than I do in my swing. That is something that excited me because I have been looking for an idea like that. Also as I have many times said I also view a straight line somewhere in the swing as the holy grail. Unless im blind that video clearly shows a straight line attack. Your video model clearly shows a gradual undoing of the hinge through the swing.

            Cally has told me to do this before and I had tried something like this but with mixed results.

            So anyway back to you Shrode. Indeed this is very similar to what i was trying to tell you guys in the thread above but instead of a coordinated (manipulated roll) this seems to suggest that you can angle the attack and have a force based auto roll. That idea made me get up this morning and hit about 50 balls before work.

            So I formed the L on the backswing by hinging on my snuff boxes and then it was a feeling of releaseing from the top after a brief plane stall. There was no over the top move because the shaft doesnt come over the arm line. It must keep in line with the L as in your video.

            So I started off with a par three hole. Hit 9 iron by swinging from the top and trying to undo the hinge with the swing. This seemed to work beautifly and the irons were crushed without me having any conscious rotation. I noticed another 10 yards on my 9 iron. It certainly felt as if my release was behind me and gradual. I didnt video but im hopeful this stopped my EE. There is not a feeling of a drop and swing. This is the swing trying to undo that angle from the start of the downswing. Reminds me of what Jack says as in release from the top.

            So I warmed up on about ten balls with 9 iron. The quality of strike was outstanding. I could just do it. Im not sure how it works but it did.


            I moved to my practice driving hole and got out the big dog. The longer shaft made the task much harder. Less margin for error and less intuitive. It took me at least 15 balls to work out something that worked for me at all. Initial drives were push fade. So I kept on trying to get an angle of attack that did the job.

            The end result was swinging behind me way way more than felt comfy. Way out of my normal zone. I ended the session with two drives ripped straight down the middle. Distance wise they carried about the same as my normal longest drive.

            So its very early days but I can see plenty of potential in this. I am cautious though because I have an annoying ability to make stupid swing ideas work on a temporary basis only to break down later.

            I think though with your video I will put some more time into this. It does tick an awfull lot of boxes for me.

            I hit at least 12 terrible drives before I crushed the last two. I kept adjusting the angle of the downswing until the thing worked.

            I do wonder if I would have written this off after a few swings if it was not for your video Shrode.

            You should have seen the iron shots I was hitting. Seriously good.

            I wonder where the rotation comes from. Im thinking it must be from shoulder socket because wrist dont rotate independently.

            Ok speak soon Lads.


            • Originally posted by Gmonkey View Post

              I have been working on takeaway but still seem to take it inside. Arms out in front on this shot feel way out in front (but they are not).

              I standing up through the shot a bit.

              I do think that the actual way I am swinging is how the ball is meant to be struck.

              I just need some insights on path, takeaway and even impact to help me get the last breakthrough.

              Looking at Rory he strikes with the arms more in front and more 'left' at impact. I cant understand why this wouldnt be a pulled shot.

              Im really crushing it and you can see its a nice right to left draw into the middle of the fairway. However I can see faults.

              Im always open to any pointers please feel free to comment. Im especially interested in impact, slight early extention and anything perhaps counter intuitive I am missing.

              I see lots I am happy with. But If I changed my intent to look like Rory im pretty sure with my current understanding id pull left and Id like to know why?

              Close now. Some outstanding golf yesterday and Im feeling im closer than ever.

              Observations please gang.......

              If anyone has the means to slow motion the video pls do for me. Id be very thankful.
              Next time you’re watching YouTube videos of professional golfers swing, pay attention to their forward bend or posture in transition. After the golfer moves laterally to the target, you’ll see a slight increase in their torso bend, a squatting motion that likely is a result of good left hip internal rotation for a right-handed golfer. This movement also helps the golfer use the ground to create power and helps ground reaction forces peak at the optimal time in their swing.


              • Hi Gmonkey

                The Ryke Effect is an opinion on how to square the clubface passively between P6.5 and P7 (ie. late downswing). That double-pendulum model is just being used to explain a possible biomechanical movement that a golfer could do to assist the squaring of the clubface a few feet before impact.

                Kevin Ryan thinks that this effect can increase clubhead speed , but he has yet to provide 'proof/maths/physics' that supports his opinion (imho , it doesn't increase clubhead speed over such a small distance after it is evoked).

                Release (as a definition that I prefer to adopt) is the increase in the 'lag angle' of the lead forearm and the clubshaft and there are many ways to release that angle dependent on your hand path.

                For example (assuming you have passive oily wrists) , if your hand path was very circular at the start of your downswing , that lag angle would increase almost immediately due to CF-evoked forces (this is not strictly true but the physics is too complicated to explain here) and is called a 'sweep release' .

                Golfers who just use their left arm in the downswing by using their left shoulder girdle muscles to pull the club down (without actively pivoting their shoulders to rotary swing their arms) usually release that lag angle immediately . That type of 'sweep release' technique can be used by older golfers who cannot pivot very well but clubhead speed is usually inferior to those who can create a more optimal hand-path using an active pivot and various other biomechanical moves (too complicated to explain here).

                An example of a golfing technique that uses the above 'left arm swinging' method is 'Leslie King' (see the free golf instruction link below).


                However , if you want create clubhead speed like DJ and other tour golfers you are going to have to learn to do a lot of optimal biomechanical movements (if your body is capable without injuring itself) to optimise your hand speed and path (see the hand paths of DJ and Cameron Champ below). They have a less curved downswing from P4-P5.5) until their hand path becomes more circular 'turn the corner' by image 3.

                Only when the hand path becomes more circular are CF-forces evoked that will release that 'lag angle' using passive oily wrists and increase clubhead speed.

                Click image for larger version  Name:	JohnsonHandArcPath.jpg Views:	0 Size:	124.3 KB ID:	12868

                Click image for larger version  Name:	ChampHandArcPath.jpg Views:	0 Size:	66.7 KB ID:	12869

                After studying all these 'theoretical biomechanical moves' that may optimise clubhead speed and accuracy , I am 99% certain that I cannot achieve these moves without injuring my body.

                Which is why my WIG swing is unique and works best for me.
                Last edited by Schrodinger; 2 weeks ago.


                • Hi Shrode.

                  Ive dabbled with this and concluded that the ryke effect is not for me Shrode. It got me back to a hinge release action that oppened a can of worms. Destroyed my game for two days. Had fun with it though but im going back to the double pendulum and snuff box work that has given me big progress.

                  Basically im hinging upwards more on the snuff box and not back stuck in error with the right hand. Im swinging out right and my release is right from the top but I dont feel I release at all until the ball has gone.

                  I am feeling like I hit the ball on an upswing.

                  The important result of this is that the angle of attack changes with this action. It is almost like there are two swing paths. first is a drop down but second is outwards (and strangely downwards). This happens because I no longer throw the club head out to the ball. We do it naturally in a throw.

                  Results are staggeringly good. Compression the lot. Distance is about the same as my furtherst drive but its every drive. The consistency is awesome.

                  If I swing out to ball with hands then I get the push shot creeping in. That is probably what Costa calls ball focus. Maybe im starting to finally get it.

                  My right side is coming through naturally with this. Like a punch, like a soccer ball strike and like an over arm throw.

                  This really could be it. My training friend is begging me to try for an 18 hole card score. Such is the progress.

                  I have finnally understood why the shaft angle changes on the downswing. It doesnt swing on the same line out to the ball. This must be what Shawn means by hitting at the ball. There is no unckocking of the hand in the swing. BUT you aint hollding the lag or anything. The massive key is the understanding of the right hand and double pendulum action.

                  I dont even think of my swing as one arc any more. It feels more like two arcs joined together. This may just be a feel.

                  I have not seen a video of this yet but the EE did seem to be a reaction to the thought of undoing the hinge on the apex of the swing. This is wrong. Very wrong.

                  Good news is my pivot still seems natural and im enjoying the feeling of the strike.

                  Ill post a video asap. (and front on view also for a change).

                  Shrode im still open to reading about the science behind the forces of the swing but im 100% convinced that bio mechanics is the way to go. Get the bio mechanics right and the forces feel natural.

                  One massive point on my journey. Because shorter clubs have a shorter shaft and not as much plane variation then a golfer can easily make a 8,9,P or sand wedge work without doing this right. Sure they may be pushed a few yards right or pulled but the longer shafts expose the error.

                  The amount of times I felt I was onto something because I could nail a 9 iron. False feedback.

                  Video coming soon.


                  • Schrodinger
                    Schrodinger commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Hi Gmonkey - Got an apology to make to you about this Ryke effect .

                    I started looking at the physics and equations for a conical pendulum and stuck some figures in for Tiger Woods swing . I don't expect many non-physics golfers to understand my maths below but it looks like the Ryke effect has a very small effect on clubhead speed. I also suspect it will only have a small effect in helping squaring the clubface (for quick clubhead speeds like a Driver).

                    Anyhow, the Ryke effect is another theory that needs to be dumped in a dark attic somewhere until further notice.


                    I looked at the Walter Lewin video above and used the formula for pure conical pendulum motion which was:
                    W*W = g/ {l*cos(theta)}.... equation1
                    W= Angular Velocity of the base circle, g= acceleration due to gravity, l = length of string (ie. clubshaft) , Theta = Ryke Angle

                    Tiger Woods clubhead velocity =129.2 mph = 57.8 m/s
                    Length of his driver = 1.11 m
                    gravity acceleration = 9.8 m/s/s
                    Ryke Angle = 32 degrees
                    Cosine(32) = 0.848

                    Plugging those values into the equation 1 we get W*W = 9.8/(1.11*0.848) = 9.8/0.94= 10.42

                    W*W= 10.42

                    W= 3.23

                    But V =RW (R is the radius of the circle at the base of the conical pendulum, W = Angular Velocity around circular base, V= linear velocity)

                    But R = l sin (32)

                    l = 1.11
                    Sin(32) = 0.53

                    Therefore R = 0.53 * 1.11 = 0.59

                    V= 0.59 X 3.23 = 1.9

                    V = 1.9 m/s

                    But Tiger Woods Clubhead velocity = 57.8 m/s !!!!!

                    Therefore , if I've got the maths correct , the Ryke effect does not convert a real golfers downswing to some pure conical pendulum action as I may have mistakenly thought Kevin Ryan implied. It might produce some effect on the component of speed in the late downswing from P6.5- P7 (superimposed on the original double pendulum action) but I don't even know whether it causes an increase/decrease or no impact at all.

                    I think I've convinced myself now that the Ryke effect might assist in club squaring but has a small impact on clubhead speed

                    Looks like another 'Red Herring' in golf theory :-(

                • Hi Schrodinger, Greetings to WIG Friends across this great Golf Course called Earth..

                  thanks for doing this bit of physics..

                  I don't pretend to follow all of it ..

                  frankly math and physics are not my gift(s) ... but I'm usually pretty good at parties, and used to be able to mix a fairly decent drink in my day..

                  ah sorry .. rambling already .. time to get someplace close to the point..

                  Clubhead velocity..

                  clearly - it's moving very fast .. and that speed and resulting energy transfer will go into the ball ..

                  question ..

                  if the clubhead is moving fast ..

                  would it be then, in a state of 'release'?

                  and if so..

                  is the club shaft traveling at the same speed?

                  or is it slowing down?

                  there's a sort of paradox to this .. in that the 'effect' and its 'conical pendulum' are pointing at something that does seem to exist .. and this description I think - at least when attempting to read through his material ..seems to relate to a an object in a sort of both 'free fall' and linear acceleration..

                  I've tried to describe this in a variety of forms ... I think we all do .. each with our own unique gifts, and capacity for trying to explain our journey and interactions with the 'great golf mystery'

                  here's another way to look at it.. in this training aid .. at about the 7 minute mark..

                  it has a weight that goes down the shaft towards the clubhead..and gives a sort of large 'click' .. at impact ..


                  I don't endorse this aid - have no real interest in it ..other than it demonstrates at least in part, the physics involved..

                  basically if you can get the club synced up to your belt buckle., that weight that is working in the 'fall' and in the turn.. will work its way outward and into the head of the club.. giving it what we consider 'release'..

                  depending on where along your spine you're working around .. that sync to the belt buckle can happen a bit early .. (hands/arms perceived working more 'down) .. or if you've cleared and are 'out of the way' (we're looking at you WIG fans)

                  then the experience is a bit more of the 'ramming speed' where the club is more snapped outward automatically..

                  regardless of style .. or timing .. as long as the blue weight goes out the head of the club .. 'click' .. clubhead releases..

                  is this the mysterious RYKE effect ??

                  no clue .

                  could be -

                  regardless of 'conical pendulum' or other areas of description or conceptualization ..

                  things are slowing down as their work is being done .. and all of their speed is now about synchronization .. but the energy is being transferred..

                  not sure if this is a useful contribution or not .. but it's a way to look at it..

                  cheers for now


                  from the hidden Ravine below 13th at CN G&CC
                  tu nunquam hic

                  Secret Swing Tech c/o Pigaman @ Crackpot Labs


                  let energy instead of style define you.

                  Proud Member 'Quote Yourself Club'