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  • kid_fullerene
    commented on 's reply
    hi Schrodinger - glad that you and your Dad are well at this time .. please stay safe and while I'm sorry you haven't been able to hit at the range, clearly you;ve been doing some good things with your time. I'm intrigued by your research and the points you're making .. seems consistent with some things that a few higher level golfers have tried to show me over the years.. it's a crazy game . and just when you think that maybe you know something about it .. well, stuff like yours shows up and you realize that maybe it's time to rethink some things.

    all the best for now

    k_f

  • Schrodinger
    replied
    Yes, I haven't played or gone to range since Oct 2019 due to the fact my father is a vulnerable person 89 (I am too, so couldn't risk it).

    Spent most of my time on other golf forums discussing the biomechanics of the golf swing and reading new research , etc . Also been trying to catch up on my old physics stuff that I'd forgotten 40+ years ago and that has kept my brain from going stale.

    Still promoting a lot of SC's and Dr Wulf's concepts/virtues on external focus while studying the biomechanics so no 'paralysis by analysis' for me on a personal basis.

    Some interesting things I've discovered from the research which might be self intuitive (or not).

    1. Creating linear speed along your hand path accounts for 90% of any 'contributory relationship' to clubhead speed.
    2. The trail hand is actually pulling the grip away from target approaching impact.
    3. The clubhead is moving so fast that your hands cannot keep up from an angular rotation basis (around the wrist joints). They are actually impeding the angular acceleration of the club approaching impact .
    4. For a clubhead speed of 90 mph (for an average length graphite shafted Driver) the amount of pressure force you need to exert via your hands is 79lbs force to prevent the grip from slipping out of your hands.
    5. Both the left and right hands are exerting quite a high force up the shaft towards the butt approaching impact (approx 104 lbs force for a 'Major Winner' driver swing)
    6. PGA pro golfers do not just use some natural release with passive hands , but actually 'kick start' release via a hand couple (not muscular wrist torque but forces via your hands relating to other body dynamics) just before club horizontal in forward swing. I would actually regard this as the 'push on the swing' type of instinctive action to maximise clubhead speed but it actually can only increase speed by about max of 2mph (so it seems a natural instinctive act more than anything done on purpose).

    Note: Point 6 is quite weird because it also seems to relate to 'Resonance' which is something I mentioned in this forum over 6 years ago. If you time your 'push' at just the right time to match your body's natural rhythm you can get the club to swing a bit faster nearer impact (like a kid on a swing). There is a golf scientist called Robert Grober who found out that golfers swing at their own unique natural frequencies and that seems to relate quite well to the 'Bi-Lateral' motion that SC has mentioned several times in his videos.

    7. This is connected to point 6 above. Because the wrists are not frictionless , a natural release like 'PingMan ' or 'Iron-Byron' (who have no means to apply wrist torque) is not possible , therefore one may have to use 'hand couple' forces via your hands (not necessarily muscular wrist torque) to assist release.

    8. Inertial forces are mainly responsible for the release of the club.
    9. Most PGA pro golfers 'Drive-Hold ' through impact - ie . they don't flip ,roll or flip-roll their wrists/clubface through impact.


    Good luck for the future and try and keep safe.
    Last edited by Schrodinger; 08-12-2020, 12:08 PM.

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  • Sentwo
    replied
    Originally posted by foamywooden View Post

    Be safe everyone, I'm sure we will all survive these trying times. Just do anything with the utmost precautions. https://hgh.to/
    thanks. i also hope everyone is going to be safe... but it looks like this year is doomed... everyone was talking about 2012 being the end of the world, but it looks like 2020 is most suitable for this thing
    Last edited by Sentwo; 11-20-2020, 02:24 PM. Reason: grammar

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  • foamywooden
    replied
    Originally posted by Cally
    Hi guys,

    I have not been following Shawn's teachings in a good while, and consequently I have not been on this Forum for a while, but in light of this virus pandemic I wanted to wish everyone the best and to stay safe out there!

    I just read a couple articles where so-called "experts" are suggesting that it's okay to continue to play golf during this pandemic if certain precautions are taken. But I suppose that everyone has to decide for themselves what is best to do. Even though I'm not in the senior citizen or elderly category that seems to be most at risk right now, I for one will not be golfing for the foreseeable future. Golf is just not that important to me, and I don't want to put myself or others at risk, especially when they say people can carry this virus and show no symptoms for a while. So to the extent possible, I'm adhering to the "stay at home" encouragement and advice that I'm hearing more and more as of late.

    Anyway, I mainly wanted to wish everyone the best as we all navigate through these challenging times. Take care, and stay safe!!!
    Be safe everyone, I'm sure we will all survive these trying times. Just do anything with the utmost precautions.

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  • COSTA103
    replied
    Hi guys, hey, Cally.....

    Perhaps my use of the term "discarded" is a bit strong...
    Generally we consider those things to be "discarded" to be of NO VALUE?
    Thus is NOT the case with the concepts to which I reference?
    Rather they are ideas to which I granted consideration and, upon examination, decided that they did not fit......me.

    It's like you're in the market to buy a new shirt... Nice to have a shirt-store at your disposal and even better if that store provides OPTIONS?
    Sometimes the shirt looks great on the rack, but not so great when you try it on?

    I hesitate to enumerate any, but they do all seem to have one thing in common?
    Generally they are those which call your attention to what is going down around the ball: HITTING something?

    Your reference to the "battering-ram" is a good example. Also, heavy sledge-hammer, door-frames; garage-doors and to a lesser extent dandelion-stems...

    Seems to boil down to the difference between HITTERS and SWINGERS (no...not THAT kind of "swinger"? )

    I am clearly a SWINGER. I try desperately NOT to think of "hitting" anything? Especially the BALL?
    Remember me? I'm the one that doesn't even LOOK at the ball??

    Any of our Chairman's analogies need to match up with that to which the player CHOOSES to pay ATTENTION.
    My attention is clearly focused on my Target, and anything down in front of me is nothing more than a reference point indicating the planetary location of my next golf SWING.
    So, perpetual-motion-drill, club-head motion-blur, rhythmic-gymnastic-ribbons, etc. all resonate with me?

    I swing to my target. Any collision with anything down around my feet on that journey is nothing other than a function of where I've chosen to stand.

    All this is NOT to suggest that those "hitting" ideas will not resonate with others?
    I'm not suggesting that there is no value added?
    Quite the contrary. I believe I've experienced MORE collective brilliance from my WIG exposure than all the other instruction styles/methods I've encountered combined.

    Love this place and you guys

    dude abides
    Last edited by COSTA103; 03-21-2020, 08:56 PM.

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  • COSTA103
    replied
    Hi guys,

    I have been an advocate of our Chairman’s philosophy since I first “met” him (online) nine years ago…
    Many of you may have noticed my presence on this very Forum these many years?
    As you might expect, I am an enthusiastic supporter of his Brand.
    I have since been able to take MY “interpretation” of his concepts and turn it into a successful teaching enterprise.
    Please indulge me in two points?

    MY “interpretation” of Shawn’s message is for EACH of us to take what we will and integrate it into our OWN process.

    There are innumerable examples of thoughts that I have evaluated and discarded.

    For ME, it is “ball-on-a-string”, “kid-on-a-swing” and “get-out-of-the-way”.

    I have never heard Shawn suggest that you should SWING like HE does?
    The very fact that we observe that Savannah’s “interpretation” of the concept appears to be “different” (visually) than her dad’s should bear that out?

    For the record, I do not believe that my SWING is much (if any) different now than it was when I was first introduced to WIG?
    What IS very different is the way I THINK?

    As Bruce Lee has said:…
    “…absorb what is useful, discard what is useless and add what is specifically your own”

    Love this place and you guys
    dude abides
    Last edited by COSTA103; 03-21-2020, 12:58 PM.

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  • Ken Robie
    replied
    Cally, I agree with you 100% Shawn's swing is his own flavor. Now contrast his prize pupil who has absorbed his teachings her whole life and notice how much different the two swings really look. They both are feeling and believing it's the right interpretation for them. Nothing wrong with either swing. Same tools being used with a different flare.

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  • Ken Robie
    replied
    Cally, everything you are saying is very true. But sometimes if listen outside of Shawn's scripted box you will hear and see him do subtle little differences from his hard line "teaching" delivery. And I think IMHO that his teaching and even his own understanding of how the golf swing works for him has been evolving. As with everything in life how the individual interprets the message is always a little variant from the next person's. And there is never anything wrong with the interpretation if works. And the cherry picking was just take whatever you need to build your own comfort in swing. It does not have to be the whole enchalada. Just crumb here and there can pay big dividends in one's own game. So tinker till it works for you. ;>)

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  • kid_fullerene
    replied
    Originally posted by Cally

    Hi Ken,

    I can't speak to Shawn's videos within the last year, but I have known Shawn's videos pretty much chapter and verse going back to 2007. Has Shawn changed his teaching on lag, and when and how to release the club?

    Here's an old example going back to 2008 where Shawn (at about the 2:00 mark) shows how the "lag" should be maintained until the hands are well past the golf ball . . .



    This is the same idea he was teaching in 2012 with his "Lag like a Battering Ram" concept . . .



    And there are more recent videos that come to mind where Shawn promoted the same deep release, lag concept. Now whether I misunderstood these ideas or was not able to apply them properly is debatable, but I know that for me this concept was a bane in my golf swing.

    Compare to this concept of initiating the release club more from the top of the swing or in the transition area . . .



    For me, and I'm not saying for everyone, the idea of initiating the release right out of the transition works much better. Now I'm sure this has much to do with what one "feels" they are doing as well. Perhaps Shawn for example is actually releasing the club sooner than what it would appear in his videos I posted above. I don't know. I just know that the idea of maintaining lag until the hands are well past the golf ball did not work very well for me, and I was doing it this way for a long time.

    This is also why I struggled with Shawn's 2016 video regarding the "Fall Up" concept for example, that in my mind was an extension of his previous "Lag like a Battering Ram" teaching. See below (at about the 2:18 mark where he shows how the hands/handle of the club "fall up" well past the golf ball coming into impact) . . .



    Again, whether I misunderstood this concept or simply wasn't able to apply it, who knows.

    Also, just one brief comment on "cherry picking" since you mentioned it . . . I think one has to be careful with this because one method of swinging a golf club may not be (and often times isn't) compatible with another method of swinging a golf club, and as I see it these different examples (lag and deep or late release versus initiate the release from the top of the swing) that I posted here are wholly incompatible and contrary to one another, i.e., there is no mixing and matching here, it is either one or the other.

    At any rate, like I said in my prior post, when it comes to the golf swing I suppose we each need to find our own way, and discover what works best for us individually.
    Hi Cally

    wanted to jump in earlier and thank you for your prior good wishes during this very uncertain time.. So far no one I know has been immediately impacted by this new illness, but it's all around me and as I see my state walk closer and closer to some kind of total lockdown - this is unlike anything I've ever seen, and it's still early yet..

    the short of it is that your prior post and this one is such a reminder of everything that I found so good about the forum - perhaps it is something that we can all see and enjoy again ..

    I also wanted to wish you the best with your latest swing journey - I've tried in the past to share pieces of what I think I now understand about how various swing methods can and do exist.. and that it isn't just 'repackaging' ... there are real differences in the sequences .. and piece parts that are critical to say a 'Ben Hogan' swing may not necessarily help you or me in our swings, no matter how hard we work to try and incorporate them.

    With the Austin stuff - he's beyond my ability to really understand - let alone try to duplicate in a useful way .. I did find some interesting stuff from Michael Broderick, who is working in parallel and for what it's worth, has apparently cracked for me - Sam Snead's swing sequence .. his release concepts and visualizations might be of some use to you, and I suspect you're likely already aware of them anyway.

    I have a few guesses as to why you're having more success with your current sequence vs. what you were doing previously - in that you are using your swing to time the turn of your body vs. using the turn of your body to time the fall (and subsequent 'lag') of your arms.

    either works - but the 'works how' is where all the 'discussion' can come from - in that it becomes all about one's frame of reference to have some kind of description or understanding..

    hope you and yours are well and safe at this time ..

    and you can get a few swings in .. fairways and greens to you Sir..

    hope to see you at Crackpot National again soon

    cheers for now

    k_f

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  • Ken Robie
    replied
    Far be it for me to put words in someone's mouth, but I think if people will look past the "it's Shawn's method or nothing mentality" these days, you may find that Shawn's methodology has been evolving as well. As always feel free to cherry pick from who ever fills your needs at the present time. ;>)

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  • COSTA103
    replied
    Hi Cally!
    Great to hear from you!

    I clearly hear you about playing golf in this trying climate?
    However, you CAN participate in golf REMOTELY by continuing to participate in THIS Forum?
    Your insight is extremely valuable and your absence has been noticed and intently felt.
    If we continue to view this Forum as our normal Saturday foursome and effort to keep this little corner of Crackpot National vibrant, we can keep our heads in the game and our bodies out of health-crisis.

    Welcome back, Cally!
    Hope all is well with you.
    Please don't view this as your "swan-song"?

    Love this place and you guys

    dude abid

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  • kid_fullerene
    replied
    Hi WIG Friends..

    saw this article today -

    thought it might get us all thinking about the 'you are your golf swing' in a more complete way.

    Golf.com 'headline - why mobility is holding your golf swing back'

    https://www.golf.com/fitness/2020/03...ur-golf-swing/

    we probably sit a lot more than we realize - and it's crucial to keep moving!

    cheers for now

    k_f

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  • COSTA103
    commented on 's reply
    Hi guys,
    One of, if not THE most memorable rounds of golf that I have experienced in my lengthy career is my one occasion at St. Andrews (almost TWENTY years ago by now??).
    Now, many of the uninitiated will proclaim "...oh, really...…"
    But my point is this:

    It was December in Scotland and we were issued a little mat to bring along (probably about 8-inches-square, from which we were instructed to place the ball on the mat whenever we were on the fairway...

    At first glance, one might expect that was a downer on my experience?
    Quite the contrary...

    As I said, it was December in Scotland? The GRASS is DORMANT at that time of year?
    The course was making a reasonable accommodation to the grass that just wouldn't grow to fill in the divots??

    But you know what?

    I did not notice, nor care.
    I had a blast.

    Do your job.....take care of your course....and support those who do.

    Love this place and you guys.

    dude abides

  • kid_fullerene
    replied
    Hi WIG Friends..

    abstract thought..

    maybe a couple of questions to outline it..

    1. how do you conceive of the clubhead ending up moving faster through the ball ?

    2. what does 'swing plane' mean, if anything?

    3. in WIG there is a 'fall' .. what is dropping?

    4. is that the only way something could 'drop'?

    how does or could any of that relate to the notion of 'wrist hinge'?

    some places to look for some 'swing magic' ..

    cheers for now

    k_f

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  • kid_fullerene
    replied
    Hi WIG Friends..

    so my ground is still frozen ..

    luckily, unlike some other people in my State ..just a few hours north - the ground is NOT under 4 feet of snow.. so there's that..

    but with the Sun climbing up higher in the sky every day.. Spring being 'just around the corner' and all..

    Golf is now a real possibility again..

    and with that .. this becomes a bit timely for all of us in the Northeast.. maybe for you, if you're lucky enough to have it warm & sunny .. it's topical now..

    either way ..

    what if Golf could be just that much better for all of us ..??

    https://www.golfshake.com/news/view/...lf_Course.html


    maybe it is all about the experience, the journey as it were, more than the collection of 'perfection'

    hope this Sunday finds you all well and ready to play.

    cheers for now

    k_f

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