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  • #16
    I'll let you know this weekend. I have a 3 hr session with Shawn tomorrow morning and then again on Sunday morning! So pumped up for this. If he can't help me than I might as well cancel my membership and sell my clubs.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by wooltie View Post
      This is WIG's greatest challenge -- the swing works when you can recall the feel of the body motioning in a direction you can't visually see.

      WIG doesn't use eye vision to confirm the motion; the opposite occurs. The motion confirms the vision, but the vision is locked inside the body's sense of where it is in space. This is why and how Shawn can swing blindfolded.

      Indeed, the eyes must 'stay still and not move' to keep the body anchored. The body needs to stay anchored so that the brain can recall the feel. The feel is the body motioning in a certain direction and the ensuing snap of the wrists in that direction.

      To use a baseball analogy -- WIG is like throwing a ball to a spot on a wall blindfolded. You know how throwing the ball to the spot 'feels', but you can't actually see -- literally see with your eyes -- the spot on the wall because you're blindfolded. So, you have someone line you up to the spot on the wall, then you recall the feeling of throwing the ball to the wall.

      Instead of use your eyes to see, you have to use your brain to see, or put another way, you have to use your body's sense of where it is in space to confirm whether you're 'going in the correct direction'.
      Reminds me of my military training!
      Must feel where you are without seeing.

      Comment


      • #18
        Look fellas—

        You will have a hard time producing a body release swing, which is what WIG is, if you need to see where you’re swinging to.

        WIG is a cogent and cohesive swing method, but it’s not for everyone.

        Some people need to see where they are swinging to. Some people want to use the club to hit the ball, and actually make the ball their target. It’s how they’re wired.

        How are you wired?
        swing down the line

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by wooltie View Post
          Look fellas—


          Some people need to see where they are swinging to. Some people want to use the club to hit the ball, and actually make the ball their target. It’s how they’re wired.
          Hi Wooltie...

          On this one I respectfully disagree....

          "...making the ball their target..." is a CHOICE; not imbedded in one's WIRING?

          Pulling one's hand off a hot stove is "wiring"...
          PLACING one's hand on the hot stove in the beginning is a CHOICE (may be a "mistake", but a "choice" nevertheless)

          "Choosing" to hit at the ball is a CHOICE.

          One CAN choose to do something ELSE?

          be water, my friends
          dude abides
          "OLD" Forum Participation

          Entry Date: 18-JAN-2011
          Posts: 1813
          Thank You: 1048

          "Be water, my friends"

          Comment


          • #20
            It has helped me tremendously....i feel everthing from when i use manipulation ...I've generated so much more solid contact.. .this tatic has brought me a real feel n confidence on course

            Comment


            • #21
              I really have to be honest here, the reason for starting this topic is that I still really struggle with WIG, I know that it works for some but I just can't seem to grasp it totally, I have problems with the up and down movement which causes me to thin shots and too much weight on the left side at set up will cause a reverse pivot in my backswing. I know that no position is being taught here but you can't cut down a tree with an axe without hitting the tree 🌲. Whether you are thinking about a ball or target you still must have motion to send it there and motion requires some sort of position whether it be your natural movement or otherwise. Sorry for the confusion!

              Comment


              • #22
                Hi Greg....
                Apologies if I have contributed to your confusion...

                My point (quite simply) is this....

                You are correct. You cannot cut down a tree with an axe without hitting the tree....

                However?

                Your success is apt to be related to if you swing that axe DOWN at the ROOT section of the tree? (read: AT the BALL?)

                OR?

                If you swing that axe on a more horizontal approach (read: OUT THERE....AT the Target?)

                I'll exit quietly now and won't interrupt anymore...

                Love this place and you guys....

                dude abides
                "OLD" Forum Participation

                Entry Date: 18-JAN-2011
                Posts: 1813
                Thank You: 1048

                "Be water, my friends"

                Comment


                • #23
                  Costa, thanks but you haven't added to the confusion I'm having, the insanity that I'm battling is of my own making, due to being on the engineering side of things here I work with close tolerances here everyday and leaving control behind isn't something my mind wants to do. I'm a perfectionist at heart and we all know that's totally insanity to think that way in this sport. The only perfect golf swing is your swing when the task at hand is performed as it was intended to do. There has to be a method to the madness! Posting this from the dungeon at work.
                  Life begins at 200 mph.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by COSTA103 View Post

                    Hi Wooltie...

                    On this one I respectfully disagree....

                    "...making the ball their target..." is a CHOICE; not imbedded in one's WIRING?

                    Pulling one's hand off a hot stove is "wiring"...
                    PLACING one's hand on the hot stove in the beginning is a CHOICE (may be a "mistake", but a "choice" nevertheless)

                    "Choosing" to hit at the ball is a CHOICE.

                    One CAN choose to do something ELSE?

                    be water, my friends
                    dude abides
                    Yeah, well. That's just like...your opinion...man.

                    Sorry I couldn't resist quoting 'the dude' to 'the dude' LOL.

                    I don't disagree at all that we choose to swing at the ball versus at 'the target'. Perhaps a clarification is needed.

                    WIG works by using the body to make a motion directed towards 'the target'. The motion passes through the ball, but that is for observation's sake. I get that, and I think most people would agree that is a decent description of how the swing works.

                    IF the ball is the target -- meaning you take the club and use it to beat the ball -- that won't work under any circumstance. For any golf swing to work, the club has to swing through the ball, not terminate AT THE BALL.

                    Some people can use the body to swing in a direction, and they do not need to see the direction they are swinging to. Shawn has perfected this through practice, wiring and sheer talent.

                    Some people can use other parts of their golfing machines, e.g. the arms, to swing through the ball.

                    Some people do better when they see the ball and swing through it -- e.g. hand/eye coordination.

                    Some people do better when they can see the direction they're motioning/swinging to -- these dispositions making swinging blindfolded more difficult.

                    What I am saying is -- and I'll just come right out now and say it:

                    WIG is a cogent and cohesive system that works well and uses 'how the body is designed to swing an arm club unit on planet earth" brilliantly.

                    HOWEVER,

                    Some people, for whatever reason (and I can list several), can swing a club better when they DON'T use their body.

                    Therefore, if somebody fares better not using their body to swing a club, then they will struggle with WIG because many parts of WIG simply won't work for them. It is not that WIG is wrong, or what is suggested is incorrect.

                    If you are dispositioned to NOT use your body to swing a club, then using "how the body is designed to swing an arm club unit on planet earth" will not work for you.
                    Last edited by wooltie; 3 weeks ago.
                    swing down the line

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I think Shawn has his own unique WIG swing and it probably wouldn't fit everyone if they tried to copy all aspects (I certainly don't). For instance, I align my shoulders, hips and feet parallel to the target line. My posture is now determined by that little routine that I've mentioned before. My ball position is determined by my PMD/Goldilocks practice strokes using a certain amount of judgement to assess where the club is bottoming out. I only use the first part of the 20/20 head swivel (because my head tilt is mostly there after I set up). I have learned to toss the club in the backswing without too much sway (by letting my quads/glutes engage and support my swing as it gets out of the way). My body is NOT driving inert arms like a Trebuchet counterweight but is rather moving out of the way to let my arms/hands plot a path that releases my clubhead in such a way that the leading edge will cut my 'virtual dandelions' as it swings through to a 'target' (stuck in the background of my mind).

                      To an outside observer, I think they would view my action as an arm swing with a reactive pivot (body supporting and 'assisting' my arm swing or 'upper body golf' swing) rather than Shawns swing that looks like he uses a full body swing with an active pivot (lower body being 'actively' used to help swing the arms).

                      Imho, Gabriele Wulf has conducted tests that prove that external cues and target intent will 'automatically' engage and fire all the correct muscles in the correct sequence (for your own body) to better fit the task ,whether its a 'body swings the arms' or the 'body supports the swinging arms' type action.

                      Now certain biomechanic 'experts' out there will be horrified by the above because it effectively makes their findings a 'WHAT' happens in the golf swing but not 'HOW' to perform a golf swing . I think most golfers trying to better their swing would prefer the latter rather than the former (although I prefer to know both)
                      Last edited by Schrodinger; 3 weeks ago.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Hi WIG Friends and Fans of Physics Everywhere..

                        thanks to Wooltie for being willing to run onto the Virtual Tracks and touch the '3rd Rail' of Golf Discussion and Instruction..

                        the proverbial 'while the physics of the Universe are consistent and wonderful' in the forms of time, gravity and momentum ....are they experienced and managed in the same ways?

                        Let me throw the rhetoric at this another way -

                        are the differences in Golf Swings, Methods and even expressions of the individual students/adherents within the various systems purely superficial?

                        if the physics are the same ..



                        does the management of those forces really exist and if so ..do they look the same and feel the same?

                        we hear that 'feel is not real' .. 'there are no straight lines in golf' 'the swing is a circle' and yet is has a 'target line' ..

                        we compress the ball (hopefully)

                        and we know that it has a relationship to the forces being sent down a line of intention towards a target.et..

                        so does the line look the same in all golf swings?

                        I notice that in WIG there are times where Shawn may have a toe line/shoulder line that is more or less directly parallel to the shot line ..but many times he does not ..that the arrangement of the body is purposefully placed in a way that will generate a free flow of the ACU on its own arc towards the target..but is certainly not 'dead parallel' ..

                        under that setup and swing ..working towards my perception of the ball on its line (assuming parallel) would be a disaster ..seen as a major swing flaw..

                        that's a correct assumption ??

                        yet...with a fairly leisurely search - I can find swing systems and schools of thought that contrast directly with WIG.. I am not advocating for them..and for the purposes of this line of thought I seek only to express that it's clear that they exist, are being taught and work very much with a parallel set of lines..and stress a much different /conforming setup..

                        to not bring the club head through that parallel line in some fashion ..what some in WIG or other rotational forms of swing methods would describe as defaulting to the ball or 'straight line'

                        would be a bad strike a 'fault' as it were in those 'apparently parallel' sorts of methods..

                        is that a correct assumption??

                        so are the Physics/Forces the same in all those swings?

                        Good old Centripetal Force....is it pulling your downswing out into a full balanced finish with a 'snap'?

                        or are you managing the outward pulling force somehow to 'keep it on the line' ?

                        do we 'swing the clubhead' or 'manage a heavy weight' and direct it with our bodies?

                        there's a set of relationships that need to be explored..


                        again ..as in the shortest shots in Golf ..

                        there is no Free Lunch....it's a game of adjustments..and you have to know what you're choosing to 'adjust' ..

                        and why..

                        the most basic rule of this ..is that you really can't pull on both sides of Centripetal Force at the same time....while it has its way..you have to choose how you want to see it expressed and work accordingly.

                        where and when is the 'speed' and what does it look and feel like to you?

                        more to follow..

                        are the distinctions that Wooltie is trying to bring forward raising any questions in your mind ??? I can see some in Gregman's latest post..any other takers?

                        cheers for now

                        k_f

                        from the hidden Ravine below 13th at CN G&CC
                        tu nunquam hic

                        Secret Swing Tech c/o Pigaman @ Crackpot Labs

                        wisdomingolf.com/index.php?option=com_ku...&id=47972&Itemid=225

                        let energy instead of style define you.

                        Proud Member 'Quote Yourself Club'

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          hey Kid,

                          Here's a simple test.

                          Take hammer and go to the proverbial 'door frame'. Pick a spot on the door frame and pretend there is a nail at this spot, just waiting to be struck. Your task is to swing the hammer into the nail.

                          There are two methods to accomplish this 'task'. First method:

                          Hold the hammer in your right hand and let the arm/hammer apparatus 'hang' in front of you. You'll 'feel the weight' of the arm/hammer tug at your right shoulder socket. Adjust the distance to door frame such that the hanging arm/hammer will swing into the nail when swung. See the spot on the door frame. Now, use the body to swing the arm/hammer back, and through into this spot of the door frame. That's the WIG approach.

                          Alternatively, a second method exists (and others, I'm describing only one for brevity's sake):

                          Take hammer in your right hand, approach the door and setup so that there is enough space between you and the door frame to swing the hammer. Feel the 'weight of the hammer' in your hand. Now, use your arm, hand, and eyes to coordinate the motion and swing the hammer into the spot on the door frame.

                          Now, which approach is easier for you?

                          Using the body to coordinate the blow, or using the hand/arm to coordinate the blow?
                          swing down the line

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Gregman55 View Post
                            Costa, thanks but you haven't added to the confusion I'm having, the insanity that I'm battling is of my own making, due to being on the engineering side of things here I work with close tolerances here everyday and leaving control behind isn't something my mind wants to do. I'm a perfectionist at heart and we all know that's totally insanity to think that way in this sport. The only perfect golf swing is your swing when the task at hand is performed as it was intended to do. There has to be a method to the madness! Posting this from the dungeon at work.
                            Life begins at 200 mph.
                            WIG uses the body to swing the arms and club through the ball. So body awareness and control is needed.

                            One can use their arms to swing the club through the ball, and find the motion that delivers the center of the face to the back of the ball. This is not making the ball the target. This approach is looking down at the ball, enjoying it in plain focus, and using your hand/eye coordination, which by the way has evolved over millions of years, to put the face to the back of the ball. People who 'make the ball their target' do so because they haven't yet realized that the club must swing through the ball, not at the ball.

                            Some people have great body awareness and control.

                            Others have great arm/hand awareness and control.

                            Some people have a mix of both.

                            Which one are you?
                            Last edited by wooltie; 3 weeks ago.
                            swing down the line

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Hi Wooltie,
                              Hi Everyone,


                              “Some people have great body awareness and control.

                              Others have great arm/hand awareness and control.

                              Some people have a mix of both.

                              Which one are you?” (Wooltie)

                              I believe I use a mix of both. I need both because my awareness is not great in either one. I just let my brain sort this out .

                              Do you guys remember on the old Forum, a member named JJJJ. I think Wooltie’s post is very similar to what JJJJ argument was at the time. This was before Place Vs Toss. See the videos below about Place Vs Toss.


                              Should You Place or Toss The Backswing: 6/6/2014
                              http://youtu.be/vV-fWzcc9Vw

                              How To Stay With The Shot: 7/9/2014
                              http://youtu.be/wSSd9h4yzDI
                              “Make sure you take the time to know that you are still getting ready to whip to the direction you want to start the ball in all 3 check points: takeaway, yes it feels like the weight of the ACU would cut grass in that direction if I let it fall...top of backswing: yes, as I get here, it feels like the ACU is loaded and ready to whip cut the grass in that direction (stay with draw and right side of intermediate point) then Downswing: feel that whipping cut through to the right of intermediate point with low strain and nice velocity. Make it a nice flat footed whipping cut!"(Shawn Clement)

                              TOSS VS PLACE: June 12, 2015
                              http://youtu.be/O-nHsAhJaCE

                              I believe it was the Place method that changed and advanced WIG for the better.

                              If you are watching the latest videos you will notice a lot more of instruction about the arms and release methods.

                              It is this last video that Shawn answers what is WIG.

                              Questions & Answers
                              February 3, 2016
                              http://youtu.be/n__N722seCM
                              The body does not control the arms and the arms do not control the body. It is the Brain that you give a task to that allows gravity and yourself to use a sword or hammer to cut that dandelion or place that nail into a door frame.

                              Thanks,
                              Gary

                              Comment


                              • kid_fullerene
                                kid_fullerene commented
                                Editing a comment
                                Gary

                                awesome stuff and a great 'pull' bringing back JJJJ - who had one of the most amazing back swings I've ever seen ! He had figured out a body turn that was John Daly Like ..just incredible! I'm not entirely sure what Wooltie's latest encompasses ..but let me offer a thought on the 'place v. toss' thing .. While the backswing varies ..did the swing sequence and release pattern vary at all? I think what Wooltie is suggesting is that there are different release patterns in the golf swing and they might be associated not just with a backswing 'type' ..but with the actual portion of the core that is being rotated (swing sequence) and how that impacts the perception of 'lag' of 'weight' and of 'clubhead' feel among other aspects of one's swing... I posted earlier in this thread and elsewhere..and with no real subsequent discussion or apparent interest ( I guess that should tell me something..) of whether there is 'one true swing' or perhaps a division in the trunk in the 'Tree of Golf Swings' .. cheers.. k_f

                            • #30
                              Hi Kid,

                              Thanks so much for your reply. I really appreciate it.

                              I guess what I was attempting to include in this thread, is that Shawn has begun to explain some of these differences in wrist actions and releases. The message I am getting from him is that it is ok to be different as long as you have a target and you have a method or feel to release to that target.

                              However, I have a long way to go to understand these different methods like you and Wooltie have done. But I am curious how one can find what is best for yourself without spending another life time understanding and perfecting these different methods.

                              The video below is another example of where Shawn has taken WIG.



                               

                              Comment


                              • Schrodinger
                                Schrodinger commented
                                Editing a comment
                                Hi Cally

                                'The message I am getting from him is that it is ok to be different as long as you have a target and you have a method or feel to release to that target. '.

                                Imho , Shawn has got that spot on. I think we've discussed many months ago about golf swing 'Essentials' and 'Imperatives' and I think you summarised the 'Imperatives' quite well at the time (which could provide the answer to your question below).

                                " But I am curious how one can find what is best for yourself without spending another life time understanding and perfecting these different methods"

                                Whatever swing feels natural for us to use (whether hitting, swinging, swing-hitting, throwing styles) we will NOT find it unless we can still do the 'Imperatives' which imho are now :

                                Target
                                External Cue
                                Balance
                                Rhythm

                                I am guessing that if we do not stray from these 'Imperatives' , one can 'fine-tune' everything else in our individual golf swings.

                                My individual fine-tunes are
                                1. 10 finger neutral grip
                                2. The routine I use to get my correct posture and engage glutes/quads
                                3. Head swivel (20 degrees) aka Jack Nicklaus at setup which seems to free up my backswing degree of motion
                                4..The PMD/Goldilocks routine I use to judge ball position and distance control

                              • Cally
                                Cally commented
                                Editing a comment
                                Hi Schrodinger,

                                Thanks for your compliment on the 'Essentials and Imperatives' that we discussed in the past, but both the keen observation and question you quoted here were made by Gary so I can't take credit for them.

                                Edit:

                                I thought I would add the link to your 'Essentials and Imperatives' thread in here . . .

                                https://wisdomingolf.vbulletin.net/f...the-golf-swing
                                Last edited by Cally; 3 weeks ago. Reason: Add link to thread
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