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  • Leave pin in or out?

    Will golfer deciding to leave pin and the next golfer deciding to take the pin out take more time to putt on the green?

  • #2
    Ron

    it's an important topic - as the whole point of being 'far & sure' in the rest of our games, is to have a chance to roll the ball into the cup. This is a significant change, and one that those who break things down into the actual measurements needed to form a useful explanation or understanding to figure out.

    I would imagine that there is likely some kind of correlation between leaving the flag in and the actual position of the ball relative to the hole in a framework of green type, stimp/speed and how the golfer chooses to putt.. (among what is likely a longer list of variables yet??)

    The flagstick can only really function as something that can help you determine a line, maybe a backstop - but at the cost of losing some real estate in the cup.

    So to my absolutely early speculation .. it might favor certain types of greens/speed and putting ..

    but if one is a lag putter for example.. where you need the ball to drop as it is slowing down and effectively turning.. does the backstop help .. or would it potentially exaggerate the lag and roll the ball away from the hole??

    guarantee - somebody is probably working on some of this now ..

    and maybe the rule change impacts what sorts of putting styles evolve on tour??

    seems like equipment and rule changes leave lasting marks upon the game .. this will be no different

    cheers

    k_f
    from the hidden Ravine below 13th at CN G&CC
    tu nunquam hic

    Secret Swing Tech c/o Pigaman @ Crackpot Labs

    wisdomingolf.com/index.php?option=com_ku...&id=47972&Itemid=225

    let energy instead of style define you.

    Proud Member 'Quote Yourself Club'

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi guys,

      I think the ultimate answer will boil down to the SPEED with which the ball is rolling as it approaches the cup.

      How FAR away from the hole will the ball CAROM, should you hit the flagstick?
      Is that greater or lesser distance that will be created if you MISS the flagstick?

      Having said that, I find it unusual that, with all of the specifications within the Rules of Golf regarding the hole, ball, clubhead, etc., etc., that there is NO regulation (that I could identify?) specifying a mandatory DIAMETER (at ground level) of the flagstick??? Am I incorrect? Can someone point me to that answer?

      How much backstop does the flag offer then?

      On fast, downhill putts....ANY backstop is apt to be better than NO backstop? I'd leave it in.

      However, on the other side of the coin, if you normally DIE the ball AT the hole?
      The flagstick is probably using up some portion of the precious space required for the ball to fall?
      In that case, a backstop is not only unnecessary, but probably working against you. I'd take it out.

      GO PATS!!!

      dude abides

      "OLD" Forum Participation

      Entry Date: 18-JAN-2011
      Posts: 1813
      Thank You: 1048

      "Be water, my friends"

      Comment


      • kid_fullerene
        kid_fullerene commented
        Editing a comment
        Dude I'll check it - but I believe that the regulation diameter of the flagstick is something like 1/2" .. I'll see what exists out there to help me put a fact on that memory..

        cheers

        k_f

    • #4
      Originally posted by COSTA103 View Post
      Hi guys,

      I think the ultimate answer will boil down to the SPEED with which the ball is rolling as it approaches the cup.

      How FAR away from the hole will the ball CAROM, should you hit the flagstick?
      Is that greater or lesser distance that will be created if you MISS the flagstick?

      Having said that, I find it unusual that, with all of the specifications within the Rules of Golf regarding the hole, ball, clubhead, etc., etc., that there is NO regulation (that I could identify?) specifying a mandatory DIAMETER (at ground level) of the flagstick??? Am I incorrect? Can someone point me to that answer?

      How much backstop does the flag offer then?

      On fast, downhill putts....ANY backstop is apt to be better than NO backstop? I'd leave it in.

      However, on the other side of the coin, if you normally DIE the ball AT the hole?
      The flagstick is probably using up some portion of the precious space required for the ball to fall?
      In that case, a backstop is not only unnecessary, but probably working against you. I'd take it out.

      GO PATS!!!

      dude abides
      Hi Dude ..
      Good Evening WIG Friends ..

      just starting to dig into the 'all things Flagstick' .. here's a starting point

      http://www.barryrhodes.com/2010/05/f...bhead-etc.html


      showing 1/2" but no mandatory rule ..
      https://thesandtrap.com/forums/topic...imum-diameter/

      nice place for supplies if you need them .. showing them for sale at 1/2" and thicker with a 1/2" taper near the hole .. and obviously a bigger anchor

      http://www.markersinc.com/golf-green...lagsticks.aspx

      and good old Par Aide .. they show standard 1/2" and some 3/4" tourney flagsticks .. most are about 7 1/2' in Length..

      http://www.paraide.com/ParAideProduc...lagsticks.aspx

      the 1/2" stuff shows 'regulation' although I'm not sure if I can find a regulation yet.. will circle back around for it and update if I can find

      cheers

      k_f
      from the hidden Ravine below 13th at CN G&CC
      tu nunquam hic

      Secret Swing Tech c/o Pigaman @ Crackpot Labs

      wisdomingolf.com/index.php?option=com_ku...&id=47972&Itemid=225

      let energy instead of style define you.

      Proud Member 'Quote Yourself Club'

      Comment


      • kid_fullerene
        kid_fullerene commented
        Editing a comment
        too lazy to edit.. here's a posting that cites a USGA Recommendation - apparently no hard & fast rule of 'no bigger than 3/4"' .. which is likely more for durability than anything else .. so the potential change is about a 1/4 in radius .. https://healthfully.com/115384-heigh...lag-stick.html so not a huge change relative to the 4 1/4" hole and the 1 1/2" ball .. I'll have to look that up .. but I was fairly sure it was about 1.68 in the US .. I think there used to be a smaller diameter British ball in play at one point.... yep.. just looked it up .. was 1.62" which I don't believe is currently made .. cheers.. k_f

    • #5
      Hi guys,
      Thanks kid for the leg-work. I did not come up with a "firm" resolution either?

      Don't you think it odd that the ruling-bodies agree to CHANGE the rule about the flagstick, but DON'T have a regulation about how WIDE the newly-installed-participant at/in the hole can be allowed to be?

      I never thought about it before, because you were always REQUIRED to remove the flagstick? Moot point.
      NOW, it's at the option of the player? Perhaps those ruling bodies have put the cart before the horse?
      You would not authorize the use of a FIVE-inch diameter ball without increasing the current diameter of the HOLE, would you?

      Perhaps I'm over-thinking this and this is all about nothing....
      Methinks I'll go away quietly about this one, too....

      Be water my friends...
      (just be sure that there's enough room in the hole for the water to flow...)

      dude abides
      "OLD" Forum Participation

      Entry Date: 18-JAN-2011
      Posts: 1813
      Thank You: 1048

      "Be water, my friends"

      Comment


      • #6
        Here a couple of other facets to the "stick" rule or lack there of. One is the type of material used in it's construction. Some sticks I am told are made of a much tougher and stiffer material to withstand the elements like wind, etc. So the "rebound" may be considerably different. The other is "design" of the flag stick. Some courses can't remember the name but they use a very large stick with a wicker basket attached instead of a flag, create a much bigger cross section. Also I do not think there is a shape geometry as to the physical design, so you could have a stick with a "flatter" dead center impact area.

        And while we are at it , what prevents a golfer from using his "own" flag stick???

        Comment


        • #7
          Interesting information about the material and size of the stick. Another consideration is the wind. When the wind is strong enough to move the stick back and forth, it would definitely make a portion of the hole smaller and affect the deflection of the ball's direction and distance.

          My concern is more about the intent of the rule change. The purpose of the rule is to speed up play. However, let's say I putt with the stick in. You up next and want the pin out. Then a 3rd putter wants it out. And the 4th putter wants the pin in. This scenario seems to mock the intent of the rule to speed up the game.

          Any one have any insights or comments about the speed of play?


          Comment


          • #8
            Hi guys,
            The speed of play is clearly an issue in today's game...
            However, I've never noticed the flagstick being in OR out being much of a factor.
            To take Ron's excellent point one more step?
            What about if the player CHANGES his/her MIND??

            I, for one, plan to play with the flagstick IN... UNTIL I'm close enough to where the SPEED of my putt is NOT a factor.
            I can clearly envision a PGA Tour player wanting the flagstick OUT of the hole when he's attempting the proverbial "tap-in"?
            THAT would SLOW the pace of play...

            dude abides
            "OLD" Forum Participation

            Entry Date: 18-JAN-2011
            Posts: 1813
            Thank You: 1048

            "Be water, my friends"

            Comment


            • Ken Robie
              Ken Robie commented
              Editing a comment
              As a side note: We have always played with the stick in during our casual practice rounds and at "our" level of proficiency have not noticed any adverse effect on putting. A new set of excuces maybe . ;>)

          • #9
            When I played alone, I always left the pin in. Like Ken Robie, I didn't notice any adverse effects. In fact, I felt I putted a bit better. The flag in seemed to aid my visual target when I lined up the putt. Also when the ball did strike the pin, the stick seemed to deaden the ricochet and the ball stayed closer to the pin.

            Comment


            • #10
              Pelz has done the testing, and he says leave the flagstick in.

              https://www.golf.com/Instruction/201...le-change-2018

              Comment


              • COSTA103
                COSTA103 commented
                Editing a comment
                I've always been a fan of Mr. Pelzā€¦.
                (his book "Putt Like the Pros" changed my putting-LIFE!
                Very pleased to learn that he and I AGREE on this point!

                dude abides
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