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Does this prove the 'Fall' In the early downswing?

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  • #16

    These weird 'fictitious' forces that you may feel (and see ) usually present themselves when you are actually in a 'non-inertial' frame of reference (ie. accelerating).

    Because your body is rotating (ie. lower torso/upper torso /arms /wrists/hands ) you can probably feel these forces (which are really reaction forces) but not actually see them (unless your moving body segments each had a pair of eyes). So yes , 'feel' might be different from one golfer to the next depending on how their body segments accelerate (I mean linearly and in rotation).

    Imho, feel is not real for 2 reasons.

    1. These fictitious forces (that seem 'real') - Centrifugal / Coriolis
    2. The time it takes for a sub-conscious action to be consciously felt. Example is in transition where you expect to feel the inertial pull/push of the clubhead in your hands at the top of the backswing but actually 'feel' that pull/push nearer impact. Giving you the false impression that you are applying pressure on the grip handle to make the clubhead move faster through impact (like a hockey slap shot).

    The point 2 example above is sometimes used by golf instruction to promote active wrist torque (later in the downswing and imho incorrectly for certain longer clubs) to create extra clubhead speed.

    Here is a good demonstration of the mysterious Coriolis force if your eyes were moving in a 'non-inertial frame for reference' (ie. rotation is an acceleration).

    Seems weird doesn't it ? As if there is a magical force curving the ball flight but its not real because there is no 'outside' force causing that curvature.
    Last edited by Schrodinger; 08-07-2019, 10:03 AM.


    • #17
      Here's a nice video showing that the golf scientists/biomechanics are delving into the shoulder joint vs ribcage movements in the golf swing

      Might help golfers who are flexible and losing power in their downswing but unsure how it would help someone as inflexible as me. I think I'd rather let my CNS do the physics for me :-)

      PS. Here is yet another video which confuses me even more.

      They are almost promoting an X-factor stretch in the downswing where the ribcage leads into the upper lead arm (ie.connection) for extra power but then he says if you overdo it then you can get a 'rotator cuff ' injury. Maybe John Dunigan got those 2 rotator cuff injuries trying to implement that 'power move', but its certainly something I don't want to happen to me.

      Here is a video that clearly shows that a lot more analysis needs to be done with regards what's happening at shoulder joint level. Shawn says that there is limited 5% movement of the shoulders when you grip a club in front of you and I suspect he is right for many of us who are inflexible, but maybe that doesn't necessarily apply to everyone , especially pga pros (who have been swinging since they were very young).

      Last edited by Schrodinger; 08-08-2019, 12:38 PM.


      • Cally
        Cally commented
        Editing a comment
        I do think people can overdo this, i.e., the upper lead arm pinned against the chest. Initially in the transition the upper part of the lead arm would naturally be pinned against the chest if you lead with the lower body and leave the arms where they are at the top of the backswing, but I think the lead arm can be pinned there for too long into the downswing.

        At some point I believe the lead arm needs to move off of the chest rather than staying pinned to it as you rotate the torso in the downswing otherwise the arms could get stuck behind you or perhaps possible injury, as they said, could result.

        At any rate, if we let the arms fall in the initial part of the transition/downswing then the body can respond and rotate accordingly.

    • #18
      Originally posted by Cally View Post
      Yes, lots of lunar craters. I believe they even name some of them after people.

      They would probably have to design a lunar crater wedge with a special sole and a super heavy shaft, otherwise one might be stuck in there all day long with a conventional sand wedge.
      Hi Cally

      we may yet live to see how your Namesake company deals with the 'Lunar Game' .. as we are likely closer to some kind of semi-permanent habitation of the Moon than anybody realizes. There are all kinds of surveys and very specific searches for water (probably at the Lunar South Pole) and ancient Lava tunnels that could be converted into some kind of base - a bit like what they did at Earth's North & South poles in the Ice about 50 years ago.

      Believe it or not - some of why we need to get there involves a specific isotope of Helium .. Helium 3 .. which opens a few doors to all sorts of progress

      Not saying that this is going to happen tomorrow - but you can see that the build out is actually relatively achievable .. and it could also make an excellent power source for travel within the local solar system..

      wish I could claim credit for these flights of imagination .. but greater minds than mine blazed this trail generations ago..

      and is there Gravity in Space?

      the short answer is 'yes' ..but not necessarily in a way that is immediately conducive to proper golf .. but it will substantially rearrange our galaxy and the next one over some time from now..

      it the fullness of time .. what we knew will somehow be reworked entirely as part of a brand new shining structure .. that will also take shape under the rules explored by the likes of Newton, Einstein and Noether.. and rules that we do not yet know ..but suspect .. working from the minds of Hawking, Thorne, Cox, Feynman and Wheeler.

      hope my little Golf Course on Planet Crackpot will somehow survive it all ..

      we thought it through and parked it just inside a stable event horizon of a perfectly engineered black hole .. but these things on a cosmic scale.. they can just sort of have it their own way.. even Crackpot National Golf & CC (est. 2011) may need a bit of tweaking to deal with this proposed Galactic Merger.

      remind me to talk to the Board in about 3 Billion years.. figuring a 1 Billion Year Head Start probably gives us enough time to do some planning.

      I've been playing the Truvis Hearts.. but I'm thinking that Callaway could whip up some Truvis ChromeSofts with some Black Hole inspired graphics..

      cheers for now


      maybe even lead to some proper golf on Mars.. Venus seems like a mistake.. and Jupiter might have a couple moons that could work .. but all in all is kind of a stretch for a weekend round.

      from the hidden Ravine below 13th at CN G&CC
      tu nunquam hic

      Secret Swing Tech c/o Pigaman @ Crackpot Labs

      let energy instead of style define you.

      Proud Member 'Quote Yourself Club'


      • Cally
        Cally commented
        Editing a comment
        I agree Kid that we are likely closer to a semi-permanent habitation on the Moon than many realize. I heard our VP announce a couple weeks ago that the plan is to send another man and the first woman to the Moon in 2024. And I saw an article saying that they would be the first humans to set foot on the Moon's South Pole. It wouldn't surprise me if we see a golf shot or two while they are there. Also I understand there are plans for a manned mission to Mars in the 2030's.

        And thanks for your answer on Gravity in Space. I thought there was gravity in space, just not what we have here on Earth. I guess we better get working on some limited gravity golf balls!

    • #19
      Just thinking about other analogies where the kinetic sequence might not fit WIG and one of them is throwing a frisbee with your lead arm . Because the arm is horizontal , there is no need for a 'fall' so one is actually practicing an OTT move.

      Skipping a stone is also a bit precarious because its teaching a right hand flipping action. That is ideal if you are your trying to create speed when the distal segments of your body get progressively shorter in length but holding a golf club makes the most distal segment longer (so the kinetic sequence will have to be different).

      Baseball and tennis swings are similar to the 'frisbee' because the arms/club are swinging more flat and perpendicular to our pivot rotation (another OTT type move)

      The only real analogies we can use to feel the proper sequence of a WIG technique seems to be:

      1. Cutting grass with a grass whip.
      2. Throwing clubs to a target.

      Even the 'slashing of the sword' seems more applicable to those who have a strong lead hand grip (and inappropriate for those of us who prefer a neutral grip ).

      We might need to be a bit more careful about the analogies we might use to feel a 'WIG' type sequence.