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  • Feel is not real ?

    After reviewing the 'Law Of The Flail' video by Peter Alliss (which I posted a few weeks ago) , let me put this idea out to the rest of the forum members.

    Does it take time for a thought to reach and activate a movement? I think yes and although the thought is at the speed of light , the actual physical mechanics to activate a muscle takes time. So we have a time delay from thought to actual muscle movement which I think will be relevant in high speed human actions. So how does this affect the golf swing, specifically in WIG?

    1. The 'wait for the weight' thought must therefore happen PRIOR to the top of the backswing NOT after reaching the top of the backswing.
    2. The pulling of the arms 'THOUGHT' (via our CNS and as per Shawns video below) has to happen a lot earlier and maybe at the top of the backswing as we perceive it. But mechanically , this pull will happen AFTER the ACU has dropped because of the earlier 'wait for the weight' action (that was thought about prior to the top of the backswing). Confused yet?

    I know this is weird , but what we think is the kinetic sequence is actually happening in a delayed fashion . Our thoughts and physical mechanics are always 'out of whack' , therefore 'feel is not real'.

    Welcome any opinions on this.


  • #2
    Yes, I definitely go for the wait for the weight. Feel may not be real, but it is something different for everyone and can help get you on track. I personally like to start with activating my backswing with a specific movement to ensure a complete body/shoulder turn. Then, the backswing becomes a slow pull... As pulling the string back to fire an arrow as an archer. This simple thought helps keep me from a jerky transition into the downswing... Something that I have personally struggled with.

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi guys,

      Did you ever chop/split wood? Hammer a nail or paint a fence? Mow your lawn? Take out the trash? Pick up a baby? Walk up (or down) a flight of stairs?
      Did you ever pause to contemplate which muscles were firing or which thoughts preceded which?

      Didn't think so.

      Why is it that we insist that swinging a golf club is any different?

      I'll go away quietly now....

      Be water, my friends

      dude abides
      Last edited by COSTA103; 09-09-2016, 03:01 AM.
      "OLD" Forum Participation

      Entry Date: 18-JAN-2011
      Posts: 1813
      Thank You: 1048

      "Be water, my friends"

      Comment


      • Glink@Cinci
        Glink@Cinci commented
        Editing a comment
        Sure do! Especially when lifting is involved and I want to protect my back. I've never had back issues and want to keep it that way. The one activity I don't think about is mowing the lawn.... Just sit down on my riding lawn mower and go for it (smile).

        But seriously... When things get off, or I have one those really nutty swing days... I need a way to bring it back and "corral" the wild horses.

      • jmc
        jmc commented
        Editing a comment
        Costa you are so right! I think we all might slip into mechanical thinking once in awhile and that's when we get in trouble. When I get that way I will get my old clubs go out in a field and throw clubs at different targets and within a few minutes I am giving it up to gravity (absolutely no mechanical thinking just focusing on my target)

    • #4
      Lets put it this way, our body movement is performed though repetition period!!!! Some where along the way we performed a sequence enough times for it to become a conditioned habit. Don't believe this, take a walk down a darkened hallway that you have walked on a infinite amount of times. Your body does not have to react to the darkness because it has performed that motor sequence so much. But if there were a 1 inch deep section of floor removed we would notice it right away and perhaps fall as a result of losing our balance. The golf swing is no different. Once that sequence is ingrained we do not have to think about it unless there is some outside influence, be it mental (stray thought) or physical interaction during the process.

      Comment


      • #5
        Originally posted by COSTA103 View Post
        Hi guys,

        Did you ever chop/split wood? Hammer a nail or paint a fence? Mow your lawn? Take out the trash? Pick up a baby? Walk up (or down) a flight of stairs?
        Did you ever pause to contemplate which muscles were firing or which thoughts preceded which?

        Didn't think so.

        Why is it that insist that swinging a golf club is any different?

        I'll go away quietly now....

        Be water, my friends

        dude abides
        Good advice as always Costa.

        Comment


        • #6
          Originally posted by Schrodinger View Post
          1. The 'wait for the weight' thought must therefore happen PRIOR to the top of the backswing NOT after reaching the top of the backswing.
          2. The pulling of the arms 'THOUGHT' (via our CNS and as per Shawns video below) has to happen a lot earlier and maybe at the top of the backswing as we perceive it. But mechanically , this pull will happen AFTER the ACU has dropped because of the earlier 'wait for the weight' action (that was thought about prior to the top of the backswing). Confused yet?
          Hi guys,
          Hi Schrodinger,

          If you're not confused yet my guess is you will be soon. I don't mean to rain on your parade, but IMHO there's too much "thought" going on here. Before I say more I realize that I can be as guilty as anyone of overthinking things. And in my experience overthinking can easily turn into paralysis which keeps me in a static state, when I really need to be in a dynamic state to swing a golf club.

          So what is the solution? Think dynamically and abandon control . . . not just physically, but mentally as well. Our job is to pick a target; pick a task; pick a club; and pick a ball flight that will lead us to the target. Once the set-up is done thinking is done . . . now what does it FEEL like to abandon control (physically and mentally), "get out of the way" of momentum, and let the weight of my instrument release me to the target?

          So to me, the "wait for the weight" (and such) isn't supposed to be a static analytical 'THOUGHT' during the swing, but rather the "wait for the weight" is meant to be encompassed in a dynamic fluid FEEL during the swing which is led by gravity and responded to by me. It's when I think that I throw a wrench into the works!

          Comment


          • Schrodinger
            Schrodinger commented
            Editing a comment
            Fantastic insightful comments Cally.

          • Cally
            Cally commented
            Editing a comment
            Thanks Schrodinger, but these insights aren't original on my part, and so I can't take credit for them. I'm just espousing and reflecting back what I've learned from Shawn, and others on the forum like the Dude, who have been preaching these kinds of ideas long before me.

          • jmc
            jmc commented
            Editing a comment
            Cally great response!

        • #7
          I don't believe our bodies come equipped with all the coordination and knowledge needed to play golf at a high level. I think we have to set a goal, then find direction to reach that goal. That direction usually comes from someone who has achieved that goal, has documented their path, and is willing to share that path with others, some times seemingly to the detriment of their own career. A good leader (teacher) uses 100's of different examples on how to reach a goal because he realizes that there are 100's of different (wrong) paths we are coming from and he must meet us where we are.
          Now I am thinking of Christianity and Jesus, but WIG fit's that explanation very well I believe.

          Comment


          • #8
            After playing bad golf for the past 4 years, I decided to really implement Shawn's teachings into my game. I used to slice, hook, hit fat shots, thin shots, and every other shot you can think of. I went to the range and started to follow what Shawn would say if he were standing right beside me. I had an intermediate point, I was playing the fade, and I had a target(flag) to go to and a 150 yd marker where I wanted the ball to end. All I was missing was the feel of what that swing would feel like to send the ball in that direction. I took practice swings, about 10 I think, until it felt like that swing would give me the shot I was looking for. After about a half of bucket of balls, I was taking practice swings, moving toward the ball, and hitting shots like I never hit before. The ball faded nicely and I was even taking divots! The feel, is a swing that you need to execute that will give you the best chance of success.

            Comment


            • #9
              The point about my thread applies directly to training drills not during a swing on the course (which is always left to the sub-conscious). If an instructor says you should feel like this at this point in the swing - it could be wrong because of the time lag between awareness and sensation during the dynamic swing. A good example would be if during a training drill, I needed to feel I was incorrectly allowing the uncocking of my right elbow immediately from the top of the backswing. What would it look like in a high speed camera when I felt that sensation? I think you may find that the camera snapshot would show that I was uncocking correctly during release and not at the top of my backswing. This is what I mean when I say 'feel may not be real' .

              PS. Just did a google search to try and explain my point and hey presto! Found one. So this shows where a 'GOOD' instructor has advised the pupil to 'statically' feel the swing in the wrong positions. But when that pupil replicated that wrong feel 'dynamically' , his swing mechanics was miraculously almost perfect. Weird!!!

              Last edited by Schrodinger; 09-09-2016, 11:37 AM.

              Comment


              • papahajek
                papahajek commented
                Editing a comment
                I was watching a video teaching session in which the student's video was provided along with a request that the coach provide a tip pertaining to the student's tendency to pull his shots along with an occasional push. After examining the video The coach commented that the student's swing was coming from too far inside with the pulls being a result of him physically attempting to over come the swing path, the pushes the result of no attempt. The tip was to tell the student to record his swing with the thought and feeling of an over the top swing. The new clip showed the student making a swing more along the target line with an improved result. The student felt as if he was casting. Funny thing, he had to retrain his feelings in order to accomplish his goal.
                Just to add, I just saw a video about how David Duval says he feels as though he reaches out (over the top) as he swings. A down the line shot of his swing shows no such thing. Just saying...
                Last edited by papahajek; 03-16-2017, 05:44 PM.

            • #10
              Its almost impossible to reason out the human thought process. I wouldnt even try. Id stick with intent and do any thinking before the swing. You are not going to have to think of individual muscle movement. God that would be incredibly difficult. For a start some muscles are reactive. The more proactive muscles are in the hands, toungue eyes etc. The reactive muscles were programmed in as a baby/toddler. You have a required action and intent and the cns probably does 90% of it all.

              When i reach for the coffee on my desk my intent is to pick up the cup and drink it. I learned how to reach and grab a cup and drink long long ago. I dont need to re learn any physical movements. I just have an intent and the brain will do the rest.




              Comment


              • #11
                Originally posted by Gmonkey View Post
                Its almost impossible to reason out the human thought process. I wouldnt even try. Id stick with intent and do any thinking before the swing. You are not going to have to think of individual muscle movement. God that would be incredibly difficult. For a start some muscles are reactive. The more proactive muscles are in the hands, toungue eyes etc. The reactive muscles were programmed in as a baby/toddler. You have a required action and intent and the cns probably does 90% of it all.

                When i reach for the coffee on my desk my intent is to pick up the cup and drink it. I learned how to reach and grab a cup and drink long long ago. I dont need to re learn any physical movements. I just have an intent and the brain will do the rest.
                Hi guys,

                I think Gmonkey is eloquently and pointedly bringing up the Elephant-in-the-Room here.

                Why is it, for many of us, that our PRACTICE swing is DIFFERENT from our "REAL" swing (aka when the ball is there)?
                Is YOURS?

                The answer lies in our INTENT.

                With our Practice swing, our Intent is to SWING the club. After all, there's nothing else to do?
                With our REAL swing, our intent (despite how loudly and vigorously we do protest?) ends up being to HIT the Ball.

                We all talk a good game. We vociferously INSIST that we are NOT "ball-focused".
                Then why was our swing so DIFFERENT from our Practice motion?

                We have mastered all the tricks, deceits, blustery retorts and lies to CONVINCE ourselves (and others) that we did in fact RETAIN our Target-Focus!
                I call BS. All we're doing is fooling ourselves.

                IF your Play-swing is DIFFERENT from your Rehearsal-swing you need look no further than your INTENT.
                Kind of makes me wonder why we even bother with that Rehearsal-swing at ALL? If we're not planning on USING it?
                We can try all the swing-aids, analogies and bandaids we want, but if your Intent is misplaced, your likelihood of success is low.

                We must take control of our own thoughts.

                Love this place and you guys.

                dude abides
                Last edited by COSTA103; 03-15-2017, 09:26 AM.
                "OLD" Forum Participation

                Entry Date: 18-JAN-2011
                Posts: 1813
                Thank You: 1048

                "Be water, my friends"

                Comment


                • #12
                  Agree with Gmonkey and Costa. INTENT is the thought process before, during and after the swing!

                  FEEL is the thought process used after the ball has landed. Was my swing Rythmatic? Was my Impact solid? Was I Balanced in my swing? What was the Strength or Stress felt in my grip and ACU during the swing? Or RIBS evaluation!

                  Comment


                  • #13
                    Originally posted by Gmonkey View Post
                    When i reach for the coffee on my desk my intent is to pick up the cup and drink it. I learned how to reach and grab a cup and drink long long ago. I dont need to re learn any physical movements. I just have an intent and the brain will do the rest.
                    Hi guys,

                    In my limited experience with this game, golf just isn't as easy as drinking coffee.

                    And even the most elite golfers in the world sometimes fail to match their swing with their intent. Here's some evidence of this, all from one tournament in 2016 . . .



                    If nothing else, this little reminder should give us some solace that even the best still struggle with this game!

                    Comment


                    • #14
                      Costa mentioned "Why is it, for many of us, that our PRACTICE swing is DIFFERENT from our "REAL" swing (aka when the ball is there)?"

                      Just saw a You Tube video with another possible reason.



                      PS. Just to put things into perspective , following on from Cally's video above , there are 26 million golfers in the US of which only approx 130k break 80. So maybe your not as bad as you think you are.
                      Last edited by Schrodinger; 03-15-2017, 10:30 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #15
                        Golf aint as easy as drinking coffee. hahaha we can all agree on that.

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