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Lighter clubs affecting the release??

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  • Lighter clubs affecting the release??

    Hi Wig friends, with Shawns latest video on the release with the grass whips and cutting the grass, and our latest discussion on roll release, do you think there is a relationship in letting the release happen,( or not) and the weight of the arm club unit, more specifically the total weight of the club?

    I feel it's much harder to let the release ( baton twirl/slash the bamboo) with the driver and fairway than with my irons. I get a nice snap with my relatively heavier shafted irons than with my standard off the shelf modern driver.

    Or or maybe it's the length of the clubs preventing the same type of snap? Thoughts?

  • #2
    Hi Damon

    I'm a bit out of my depth on this one - as this whole equipment thing is very much a specific and detailed discipline. One of my friends is quite good in this regard - and I always learn a lot from him - but it's like following along any complicated subject that one has a sort of surface level acquaintance with ..pieces of it I get..pieces of it just go right over my head..

    so in that spirit...I would try and offer this...

    it absolutely makes a difference..actually it can also make a lot of little differences that can add up to a big difference..

    some places you can look to get more of a sense of the why/how of this might be Tom Wishon who has some stuff on Youtube and a variety of writings, white papers and thoughts on the subject..

    Frank Thomas - formerly with the USGA also has some stuff up on YouTube that is pretty informative..



    it can at least give you a sort of starting point..I also have no doubt that there are clubmaking/fitting resources out there that can show you stuff in practice that might also help you at least identify some of the points you're seeing and trying to connect.

    there are some keys to this - and you've asked the relevant question..

    where is the weight ?

    how/when do I feel it?

    how does that mass into energy transfer create compression and resulting flight?

    the modern driver that you're using might well have the wrong shaft in it for you - and it not only would impact your sense of swing weight ..but also how the face squares up at impact..

    so you get into stiffness, kick point..how it's tipped..and so on..

    off the shelf shafts are kind of grab bag - in that one can have a great Driver or 3W head - but marketing decided that a certain manufacturer's shaft leverages some kind of price/innovation marketing $$ synergy thing..

    and it can turn the club into something pretty poor..

    it not only can happen ..it does happen..a lot..

    I'm lucky in that I've fallen into a circle of people who really know this stuff and my experience of it now is that I sort of show up ..they explain to me what it is they think I have a shot at understanding ..and have me try some stuff..and my equipment evolves into something a bit more effective than when I started..

    frankly ..it's dumb luck..

    but I'll take it..

    my thought would be for you to find a sort of similar circle..somebody who has some clubfitting know how, chops and is a bit of an 'outlier' ..someone who will work with you as opposed to blowing some 'equipment marketing smoke' at you...

    nobody wants to feel dumb and helpless in that process ..so take what is clearly a sharp insight and do what you can to develop it so that you can hold your own with this process..

    and definitely have a look at that driver and swing some other stuff..sounds like it's doing you no favors..

    cheers

    k_f
    Last edited by kid_fullerene; 11-22-2016, 04:00 PM.
    from the hidden Ravine below 13th at CN G&CC
    tu nunquam hic

    Secret Swing Tech c/o Pigaman @ Crackpot Labs

    wisdomingolf.com/index.php?option=com_ku...&id=47972&Itemid=225

    let energy instead of style define you.

    Proud Member 'Quote Yourself Club'

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    • #3
      Thanks Kid for your insight. I've read a lot of published material from Tom Wishon and currently trialing a forged classical head with forgiving properties from Maltby. I've settled on a length, based on my skill set and so far that one club has been encouraging to say the least. I think as amateurs we read too much into a certain shaft, flex, kick point etc,etc. Even Tom admits the most important fitting parameter is weight and then length, which is more in tune thankfully with this forum.

      I think Shawn uses a steel shaft? Quite short as well in the driver?

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      • #4
        Damon

        not sure what Shawn is using now ..but at one point he was definitely using some steel shafts in his Woods..

        he - with his strength, whipping action and resulting swing speed ..was looking for swing weight and some stiffness that with his technique ..he could translate into distance and accuracy..

        and you definitely have an understanding of what the manufacturers are doing in terms of trying to balance $$ and help create forgiveness and speed..

        and while distance can be achieved by adding a bit of length to a shaft - longer potential swing arc could give you some speed and resulting yardage..

        it also is limited by the very human needs to be able to see and coordinate their action through the ball and to the target..

        that's to say that if I put a shaft into your golf club that's longer and more whippy ....it's going to look and feel different..sometimes very different..and like any learned skill - golf and new take time to sort out..

        finding the tools that fit best into your consistent and predictable action through the ball ...tend to be the most successful..

        and as our 'Godfather of Gravity' the veritable Costa Dude so often says..'the golf ball is also a crucial part of your equipment'..

        getting the hardware 'right' without a notion or allowance for what object you intend to compress and direct with momentum might also be a bit less than productive.

        this will be something I'm very likely to pursue for myself over the winter..

        time to challenge a few of my own preconceived notions, habits and product choices that I've accumulated over the years!

        I suspect it will be pretty revealing ..

        good luck in your journey

        cheers

        k_f
        from the hidden Ravine below 13th at CN G&CC
        tu nunquam hic

        Secret Swing Tech c/o Pigaman @ Crackpot Labs

        wisdomingolf.com/index.php?option=com_ku...&id=47972&Itemid=225

        let energy instead of style define you.

        Proud Member 'Quote Yourself Club'

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi guys,
          My apologies for being a bit "late for this party"....

          And, if you don't mind waiting a bit while I drag out my old, well-worn soap-box.....?

          ...just a minute......it's a bit heavier than I remember.....:

          There we go. If I could just get a wee bit of help getting up on there???

          Ahhh....I feel MUCH better now?

          Anyway... I find it interesting that the OP has a question about RELEASE with the Driver and Fairway clubs?
          Seems that he's OK with the shorter, heavier clubs, designed to propel the ball a shorter distance?

          We've spent a reasonable amount of space on this here forum discussing and debating the LENGTH and WEIGHT of the respective clubs in our bags?

          Has anyone (besides me?) considered that perhaps we SWING the "longer" clubs DIFFERENTLY than we do the SHORTER ones?

          There are TWO exceptions in our bag with which we cannot club UP?

          Driver off the tee and Fairway club off the ground.

          Everything else, we're comfortable with taking the next longer-distance club?

          We just club-UP and swing "normally"....

          However?

          Is it possible that with these LONGER clubs, we SWING HARDER? Thereby "interrupting" the "normal" RELEASE?

          IMHO, for the most part, problems with RELEASE with the longer clubs is more about a change in our INTENTION;

          rather than the length or weight of the instrument.

          (can I get some help getting back down off this soap-box?)

          dude abides



          "OLD" Forum Participation

          Entry Date: 18-JAN-2011
          Posts: 1813
          Thank You: 1048

          "Be water, my friends"

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          • chardrice
            chardrice commented
            Editing a comment
            Fair point. I think one point I want to add as to another reason WHY you might swing the driver and fairways differently. It's safe to say that your entire set of irons will have matching swing weights (that is the feel of the weight of the club as it swings). I think it's also safe to say that most people do NOT get fit for fairways and drivers in terms of matching their iron sets. If you get a driver or fairway with a significantly different swing weight, then you're apt to swing it differently, no?

            There's a few different thoughts on swing weight. Some believe that wedges should feel heavier and drivers feel lighter. I like to feel the club however, so I try to match my driver to the weight of my irons. My irons are VERY close to my wedges, but not quite as heavy. Having a consistent swing weight across the board has helped me to make a consistent swing with different length clubs.

            EDIT*: Overall weight of the club will also make a difference. Visit your local PGA professional or clubfitter and they can help you figure things out.

        • #6
          Unfortunately, it is an illusion, that constant (classic) swingweight leads to contant feeling over the iron set in the hand.
          Think, the swingweight measurement is an artificial one, which has nothing to do, with the situation we hold a club in both hands.
          Dive deeper in the argumentation of MOI weighting, then you know, what I mean.

          Comment


          • #7
            This is a perfect thread for me to get you guys up to date with my latest addition to Wisdom in Golf: WELCOME PING! I wanted you guys and gals to know first that I had my fitting at Ping on Monday with the new I Blades. They look like blades, feel like blades, sound like blades and are as soft as any of the softest blades I have played and give me the feedback of a blade. So, thank you Nike for the perfect timing! Amazing how one door closes and another one opens huh?

            I AM OVER THE MOON WITH THEIR PRODUCT...I won't make any commissions on sales of their products either, which some people will think I am a bit crazy...we will talk about that later and why this would mean a better long term relationship with Golf and helping bring our Wisdom into more golf lives. Golf lives matter! πŸ‘πŸ˜€πŸ˜β€οΈ

            So about this thread; in my fitting, I went with old faithful, dynamic gold S-300. The heft, the load, the pop; feels awesome. 7 iron carry average 185 on Trackman and nice tight draws and fades. Just for comparison, Nick, our rep and fitter who has been at Ping for 17 years, puts the old ZZ lite shaft version which is basically a Dynalite from True Temper and now the carry goes to 195 and dispersion starts to spray 10 yards wider. The feedback went down significantly and I could no longer feel the club tracking the arc as well; maybe over time I could get used to it but my CNS was way happier with the feel of compression of the S-300 which is about 30 grams heavier.

            Driver and fairway wood: 9 degree low spin head was awesome; 2200 RPM average, club speed between 110 and 115 and got carry of 290 and total 320...ooooo happy! We tried the higher spin head and the weight configuration just did not suit me at all; amazing what happens when you move that COG around even just a bit!
            17.5 degree 5 wood bumped to 16.5 4 wood with 3 wood length gave me 260 to 265 carry and 280 total.
            Shaft is the 80 gram is S Flex in the Fujikura and we will make comparisons to my old Cleveland Driver with Steel Shaft on Flightscope when I get the gear in the next week or so;

            Now, because the driver and fairway wood shafts are longer, they require a wider head to deflect along the ground; the feel of the release will change from under to away which is what Damon is feeling; the other points made can definitely be a factor as well but I am giving the perspective of a swing that really lets go to the fullest of its ability and the feel I am looking for is the TRACKING OF THE ARC WITHOUT COLLAPSE LIKE THE BALL ON A STRING; the point where you want to feel the most pull is well past the tee in the direction you want to start the ball; that is where you want to feel the weight of the club head and shaft release the arm-anatomy. If the shaft is too light, you cannot feel it track and will spray immediately and if the shaft is too heavy then you get the collapse and spray again; you want that nice sweet spot and the only way to tell is to try!

            The wedges from LW to 9 iron will all be the same length; as usual, which shows me the valid points of single length to some degree; but I think I would go with 3 different lengths in the set; short-medium-long; wedges are superb with same grinds and bounces as Vokey but better hosel to cut grass in rough and new, believe it or not, WATER REPELLING properties in their steel...which brings us to the grooveless clubs debate....You gotta love golf for all the fun debates it brings!

            STARTED WRITING THE BOOK AND ALMOST FINISHED THE INTRO; Tim O'connor is a great mentor and keeping me on track and on task with what the reader wants to see; working hard you guys! Can't wait to pick the winners of the contests in a couple weeks! 14 days to go!

            As a famous WIG man continues to say; love this place and love you guys!

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            • #8
              Can't wait to see you here in Phoenix Shawn for our school session - your Pings still in their wrappers!

              Part of what I need to keep me in this hobby is abit more clubs to play than one standard set, Hence, I field two full bags of 14 with similar loft/gap specs, but use them for play 75/25 ratio. In the 75% used bag, I have heavier shafted Driver-FW/Hybrids-irons. Driver is 68g, FW/hybrids from 70-85g, irons 127g. The other bag is 10-12g lighter for D-fwy/hybrids, 12g lighter for the irons.
              I even have almost enough other clubs for nearly a third full bag.

              It's not all hapless though....I have sold off three sets of irons in the past two seasons before acquiring new ones. And over on the golf wrx forum you have tons of folks with half dozen or more club sets to play and admire.
              Wiggle....
              Waggle....
              Wobble....

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              • #9
                Haha; ask Alpine about that; wow does he have an amazing collection of clubs and a nice home club repair and manufacturing facility to make clubs; all self sufficiant!

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                • #10
                  But after your visit one club is missing, searched all day long😏 Hope, Ping makes no 1 iron.
                  Had Ping S59 for a couple of weeks, same as Bubba plays or played. Was a mistake to sell them. Enjoy your Ping clubs.

                  Comment


                  • #11
                    Thanks guys, Costa and Shawn. I think it's probably a bit of both scenarios, I'm trying to steer the longer clubs instead of being free, but is that because of the weight?? And definatley easier to feel the whip with an iron hanging under you compared to the woods which are more away from the body, hence the more you try to control the club??

                    Last weekend I resharfted the driver and 5 wood with 80 gram Diamana's. I've only hit the driver but so far so good. It is heavy, I can feel the weight and feel the unit trying to release me, just need to let it happen and let go! Dispersion is tighter, flight lower and more of a purpose. Distance is a little shorter at the moment because it's not bombing and hanging in the air.

                    That's great about Ping Shawn!
                    Last edited by Damon; 12-05-2016, 04:20 AM.

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