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  • Target Line Wrists and intent

    Ok.....hmmmm where to start.

    I have stopped thinking of the golf swing as an arc !!

    In my head i had the idea that a golf swing was round and I would swing around and during that swing around I would impact the ball and send it to target.

    Whats wrong with that? The thing that is wrong with that is how our wrists work. You can hit a golf ball like that but the temptation is to throw hands at it or come round with shoulder.


    I have looked at baseball, over arm throws and badminton smash and also long distance beach casting.


    You can learn the most from baseball.

    I noticed a long time ago that a players angle of attack on video seems to come from outside the target line and then down the line with the right wrist intact until after the ball has been struck.

    I see lots of golf pros (not Shawn) telling us that the club end tracks the target line from start to finish. Video of top players taught me long ago that this is not true.

    We then see lots of posts, videos about forward shaft lean and lots of BS about holding the lag. So we try it.

    Because this seems unnatural the intuitive 'fix' is to swing along the 'arc' (target line) and in doing so the hands MUST be released early. This will create an OTT path.

    So we work on the right hand forward lean. We then pull a shot left. We then pull another shot left. So we have two options. Get in front to square up the shot (sway) or cast the hands (push). Or both push slice.


    If you throw a tennis ball 30 feet or more you will see your lead elbow come inside of the target line also your forearm. Rotation of the forearm gets it back on target and the ball is unleashed in a creshendo of power. It is not released in the late (weak) part of the swing.

    So gravity drop and swing to target right? Ok. Heard the one about the club pointing down the target line at all times? From youtube etc? Well guess what it does not. It must point outside the target line because your new found lack of right wrist release will allow you to power straight through and to target. Just like a badminton smash and just like a throw and just like a major league hitter.

    So the swing may be on an arc (probably has to be but this is not the feel). I honestly dont know but the feel for me is a down drop and then a straight to target. This has removed all temptation to sway or over rotate (weak) in the backswing and other little issues. All fixed by intent. With this feel it is so much easier to keep the head from moving. The head will lead the body.

    Forget about arcs , circles and rotary stuff. Think drop, right forearm at the sky with angle of attack seemingly outside the path of the ball and then rotate straight to target without chopping the hands. The right wrist will look 'held' but it is not. It just releases after the ball has gone. The length of club will determine the angle of attack.

    This is a true compressed strike of a golf ball.

    I also dont think this is as natural as people make out. My 5 year old son is slowly learning to throw a ball over arm. His throws are left and right for EXACTLY the same reason. You ask a four year old to overarm throw a ball to you. I estimate that 3 out of 5 throws will be left of target. If you slice or push you are likely to have tried to fix the problem with incorrect hand action or a sway. The weight of the golf club will make the hands error more likely (slice or push) than a ball throw by a kid (pull left).



    I have drawn a very crude visual of my old feel vs new feel. It may help translate this stuff into English.


  • #2
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    This is not how the club travels but its my intent and feel.

    Anyone have similar feel? Or even understand my garble !!

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi GM

      always great to see you go at a new perspective and thought process..my hope would be to advance this conversation a little by contributing a couple of ideas that are potentially in concert with your observations..

      1. One's action(s) will follow one's eyes ..seems simple enough.. I suppose there's a reason why it's considered 'eye-hand coordination' as opposed to 'ear hand ' or some such thing. which leads me to another thought:

      2. How one perceives the 'line' is going to absolutely dictate one's action ..Think about how Shawn has a clear sense of target and target line and then an intermediate point ON THAT LINE and has you release the action of the club head (we'll worry about the travelling on its own arc in a second) always to the target ..

      3. Which brings me to the nature of this 'twist' on it.. I came to the belief that depending on how one sets up and then pivots..the relative turn of the head in concert with the body and of course the resulting position of the eyes (which should never move - think about that for a second) any apparent movement of the club will seem like a straight line as opposed to experiencing the arc. So more like the right side of your diagram as opposed to the left.

      4. Stance and setup / width of stance/ grip ..hip hinge et al. absolutely influence how one sees the line of intention (to the target) and if there's a specific area of care and understanding in golf ..it absolutely must be there as opposed to 'magic moves/actions' later .. if you can't see it, you can't save it.. simple as that.

      5. your setup and stance is also relative to your resulting 'kinematic sequence' or whatever you want to call it.. some are better for body/arms..some are better for arms/body.. and of course that also dictates the nature of one's release. which brings me to

      6. congruency - your setup and stance must be suited to supporting one's vision ..and all of that must then be supportive of a proper release of the energy that is now directed into the head of the club. One can never 'mix and match' which is to say...if you see the line in a particular way ..which might be terrific for a swing that is arms timing body..and you try and do it the other way around.. you're in for a foggy world of confusion and pain ..nothing but short circuits and you've ruled gravity and momentum out and brute force in.

      Golf and its instruction don't suffer for lack of answers - frankly there's nothing but answers out there.. complete systems and techniques abound..

      the problem is much more what you're putting forward..

      which is one of questions..and the most basic one which is..

      how am I seeing this ..?

      and why?

      and from there ..

      how then would I get this to work?

      at Crackpot National Golf and Country Club ..we avow no particular system of thought or technique - but merely one where Gravity and Momentum prevail - and while G&M rule the apparent experiences of those who inhabit our Universe..realize that the Universe is a massively parallel experience experiment. While similar - no one's experiences and thoughts and situations are exactly alike - answers alone will never do, instead ..sharpen the blade of making your questions count..just as you have.


      hope that this provokes a few in the WIG Friends Near & Far..

      cheers for now

      k_f
      from the hidden Ravine below 13th at CN G&CC
      tu nunquam hic

      Secret Swing Tech c/o Pigaman @ Crackpot Labs

      wisdomingolf.com/index.php?option=com_ku...&id=47972&Itemid=225

      let energy instead of style define you.

      Proud Member 'Quote Yourself Club'

      Comment


      • #4
        Hi Gmonkey - What you are saying (i think!) is actually mentioned in this old book I have . I've attached a scanned image .
        Attached Files
        Last edited by Schrodinger; 08-13-2017, 08:58 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi Schrodinger. I think its the same yes. Its put in a complicated way (as usual) !!!. A person really could not understand that book unless they already understood !!!! So yes I can see what they are trying to say but otherwise a person would have no chance with that diagram.

          I have put it in a much simpler way.

          I have recently introduced my wife to badminton. We play for an hour every week and she is pretty well coordinated. The kept hitting smashes and clears straight left. With this same information she started to hit straight in five mins.

          I literally thought of swing path as the left diagram in my picture for all my life. I just assumed this was swinging to target. I looked at how Hogan and co. came into the ball and simply could not understand how it worked. I mean I really looked. If I tried that then my swing would have a ton of compensations that I could see they did not do. But I stuck with it. My big two compensations was a sway back and foreward. This was down to head movement and intent.

          I booked a call to Shawn and his words taught me to eliminate the head movement which was the basis of a sway. There was a thread on here about it. The weight of the head will have the body follow. Its how must of us walk. We catch the weight of the head moving forward. Almost fall forward. I think someone said not all people walk this way but I certainly do.

          I was disiplined to avoid the sway and the trouble was that the sway was necessary with my swing. My CNS was putting in the sway for good reason.

          With the head sorted I started to pull more shots and push more shots. One drive left the next right. Infuriating. Now I was playing off 9 so you can imagine my friends thought I had destroyed my game. I was hitting 270 yards out of bounds left one minute and in the trees right the next.

          I was now coming into the ball the way I wanted and my contact felt great. So what the hell was still going wrong?

          Swing intent.

          Badminton clear is a swing you aproach from inside and you strike at the shuttle with a hammer blow. There is a gravity drop to set the swing also (even with a light racket) . Sound familiar? So why wasnt I pulling my badminton shots? I wasnt pulling my badminton shots because I was heading right down the line with my intent. No thoughts of rotation, no thoughts of circular swing nothing. But I assure you all that I was rotating and my swing was not linear.

          I will draw a similar diagram for distance fishing from a beach.

          Shrodinger let me know how you get on with this please.

          Comment


          • #6
            So left has a swing thought of an arc and a release point to target.

            Right has the rod parallel to the ground (like a javelin throw) and then swings straight up that line.

            If i put a rod in most of your hands I gurantee that most would prefer option one cast. Its more intuitive and easier to implement. The downside is it aint accurate and casts 50 yards shorter than option b. Sound familiar ?

            The whole point is that to watch both casts they would look very similar to the untrained eye. You would not easily detect the intent from watching.
            Last edited by Gmonkey; 08-14-2017, 06:06 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Hi Gmonkey,

              Interesting thoughts!

              So for you the feel from the top of the backswing is "drop down and then straight to target."

              Originally posted by Gmonkey View Post
              So the swing may be on an arc (probably has to be but this is not the feel). I honestly dont know but the feel for me is a down drop and then a straight to target.
              Just wondering what your thoughts are on Shawn's "Throw that Club Straight" video where he says for many of us (me included) the feeling of throwing to the "right" of the end target is actually a "straight" throw with the resulting (post impact) blur of the clubhead going "straight" down the target line . . .



              What Shawn describes in this video is what works best for me . . . I "feel" like I'm either skipping a stone or throwing the club to the "right." While we can have different "feels" my guess is you're further along in your golf development to where you can "feel" that you're sending the momentum "straight to target" rather than a "feel" of sending the momentum to the "right" of the end target so that the blur of the clubhead goes relatively "straight" down the target line and not to the "left" of the target line (resulting in a pull; a hook; or a slice). That said, I do better with a draw "feel" than a fade "feel."

              At any rate, I think to a big degree this comes down to a perception to the target, and a "feeling" that matches with that perception.

              Comment


              • #8
                I have thrown the club many times. All down to Shawns instructions. I indeed started seeing the club fly left! way left! I then corrected this by throwing right and watching the club fly straight down the target line. However you can achieve the desired result by setting up or playing for the pull left. That is how I believe I solved the club throw issue. So all I was doing was setting up right to mitigate the throw left. I dont think (I know) I had not corrected the way I was throwing (action). Kind of like how you see people with a big slice playing to them. Set up to send it left and watch their slice bring it back on the fairway. Playing to a fault is not the same as fixing one.

                The club throw was very big for me because it can give you real feedback. Not guesswork. When you see that club fly left its a truly shocking thing. Great advice from Shawn.

                If you have an early release then your club throw down the line will feel WAY right.

                This will tell you that you have an issue but swinging right will not fix the issue. If it was as simple as swinging a bit to the right than 99% of people would have sorted golf in months or even weeks.

                If you are coming into the ball properly (try and stop the video at 4.41) that is the correct angle of attack. No OTT, forearm pointed up and look at the angle intact in right hand. This will feel at the target.

                Shawn is playing a draw here so he will feel a slight start to the right (as he says). At impact the club will feel thrown down the line. This is not the same as playing for an OTT swing left by swinging to the right. This is NOT what is going on here.






                Last edited by Gmonkey; 08-14-2017, 11:21 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Gmonkey View Post
                  I have thrown the club many times. All down to Shawns instructions. I indeed started seeing the club fly left! way left! I then corrected this by throwing right and watching the club fly straight down the target line. However you can achieve the desired result by setting up or playing for the pull left. That is how I believe I solved the club throw issue. So all I was doing was setting up right to mitigate the throw left. I dont think (I know) I had not corrected the way I was throwing (action). Kind of like how you see people with a big slice playing to them. Set up to send it left and watch their slice bring it back on the fairway. Playing to a fault is not the same as fixing one.

                  The club throw was very big for me because it can give you real feedback. Not guesswork. When you see that club fly left its a truly shocking thing. Great advice from Shawn.

                  If you have an early release then your club throw down the line will feel WAY right.

                  This will tell you that you have an issue but swinging right will not fix the issue. If it was as simple as swinging a bit to the right than 99% of people would have sorted golf in months or even weeks.

                  If you are coming into the ball properly (try and stop the video at 4.41) that is the correct angle of attack. No OTT, forearm pointed up and look at the angle intact in right hand. This will feel at the target.

                  Shawn is playing a draw here so he will feel a slight start to the right (as he says). At impact the club will feel thrown down the line. This is not the same as playing for an OTT swing left by swinging to the right. This is NOT what is going on here.
                  I hear you, but I'm not talking about an "early release" or "playing for an OTT swing left by swinging to the right." I'm just talking about a "perception to target" and the "feeling of throwing to the right" of the end target. Again, what you "feel" and what others "feel" are often very different, but the end result can be similar.

                  FWIW, here's another Shawn video explaining what I'm talking about showing proper alignment to the end target, and a feeling of "swinging right" of the intermediate point (for a draw for a right handed player, and to the left of the intermediate point for a left handed player) . . .



                  BTW, if you were used to an early release and/or an OTT swing to the "left" it seems to me that a swing "straight" down the target line would likely feel more to the "right," but not necessarily "WAY right."

                  I'll go away now.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Just to piggyback a thought I have with a question here. Is/can throwing the club to the left be equated the same as ball flight to the left when using just the lead hand (swinging one handed)???

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hi Cally, I havent seen that video of Shawns before. I dont understand it to be honest. @ 1.26 he say 'when you look at that alignment you think omy gosh im going left into the bunker' I dont see that at all. I see a good alignment for the shot he is trying to play. Slight draw. So I dont understand his initial premise. How is that set up @1.26 going left? Its not.

                      This is clearly a video about working the ball.

                      A draw is created with the swing path right of the club face in relation to the target line. So the swing path is slightly right and the club is whipped to target. The ball is played back in stance to promote the club face open to target line. This is what is creating the right to left shot. If you were swinging right with a path right you would get a straight push right.

                      Try a few shots with my intent and thread posts. Then try and work the ball after you are comfy with the intent. Dont mix the two.

                      I would teach my son to pass his soccer ball to me first. I would not start by teaching him how to bend it around a player (draw in golf). To curve a football (soccer ball) is the same as draw mechanics in golf. Path vs target line vs Foot impact (club face).

                      Now I am not saying the aim is to hit straight shots. Im saying deliberate ball working is not what I would start with.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Ken Robie. I dont know about one handed but swinging but swinging left is not equated to ball fight to the left because the club face plays a part also. Ball flight is achieved with the relationship of path to club face. You could swing left and get a massive left to right flight (slice) or you could swing left and get a ball flight that starts left and goes further left (pull hook).

                        Look into club path vs face and research it yourself. It will help you diagnose errors.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olesKFME1rg&t=37s

                          Ok guys watch this. Think about a rotary intent vs what I have been saying. See it now?

                          Remember me in your prayers hahahaha.

                          bye for now,.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hi WIG Friends..

                            seems like I'm stuck along the outside wall watching this dance..but I'll try once more to get on the floor and likely make a bigger fool of myself or remove all doubt of my Crackpot Golf Theorist status.. I'll try and speak less obliquely than usual in hopes that it sparks a thought or two.

                            here goes:

                            1. is the golf swing itself a circle? - Yes - absolutely..the swing is a circle, it takes place within a sort of (no actually it is exactly) spherical geometry.

                            2. where does the arc come from? - the arc is best described within WIG by Shawn as a sort of 'self preservation' or non-crash dynamic state, where the body effectively is out of the way of the momentum which is then allowed to fully flow into the head of the club.

                            3. there are a series of apparent paradoxes that then exist that are a bit unique to a golf swing or line fishing or Jai alai .. the most relevant one in my mind is how does the head of the golf club (or weight at the end of the line) gain speed while the body is actually SLOWING DOWN? Oddly enough..the club head is actually travelling even faster after the impact/compression of the ball!


                            Some Places to look:

                            1. you have no choice but to understand and become best friends with the actual release of the golf club head..it's literally your only hope..without it ..you're probably stuck. what I think I see in many posts is a sort of question phrased in a multitude of ways and that is "how can I take the swing radius that I see at address and then turn all of it quickly enough in a way that I can hit the ball a long way and make some kind of visual sense of it?'

                            Answer: you can't.. it's not that you don't know how ..or somehow can't do it ..it can be done...periodically and a bit randomly ..but it can't be done with any great regularity ..not by you or by anybody..why? It's simply not physically possible. It's a bit like me betting you to be able to put a dozen saltine crackers in your mouth at once and see if you can chew them up or swallow them, or some other 'sucker bet' .. there are things that the human body can not do ..and literally works against itself.

                            2. Don't confuse body release or action with actual clubhead release.. the body release is simply the 'out of the way' ..clubhead release is its own thing.. you can time it with your body to some degree ..that's a body/arms timing thing that is a sort of WIG cornerstone..but once 'out of the way' the body has effectively slowed down..and the speed is travelling to the end of the club.

                            3. Which Brings me to 'Centrifugal Pump' - Ground Forces and whatnot - that's the critical element if you're looking for speed..think about it..you're out of rotation ..the 'fall' has happened ..where does the rest of the speed come from ..people then say with some degree of rhetoric 'the ground' ..to which the only question can be is 'ground where or ground how'...?

                            Yep - you're working a bit upwards ..at least in your lower body action ..that 'pump your legs' bit ..ignore it if you'd care to - but that's critical to any hope of acceleration ..

                            4. Any description of a visualization that has a proper release with proper leg action in a golf swing ..will make little sense to someone who has never experienced it.

                            Which leads to the paradoxes of instruction:

                            1. Do I put you in a position to 'see' it and hope that you eventually experience it?

                            2. Do I put you in a physical experience of it and hope you see it?

                            3. Do I give you the elements of it and hope you put it together enough to experience it enough to find it and see it?

                            4. Do I give you the parameters of it and hope that you figure out the elements of it to work out #3?

                            and so on..

                            the other paradox to this - is that people's ability to see a line is influenced greatly by their physical elements - how they stand (width for example greatly influences perception of line) grip, and so on.. and bodies don't all sequence and react the same to the physics or weight of the swing action...


                            I don't come close to speaking for Shawn - and I would not put any of my musings out there as having any relevance to WIG - but if you look at the 'paradoxes of instruction' bit, you can likely see how Shawn looked at the swing and at trying to get students into a place where they could work it out..

                            external focus on action

                            a sense of where the target is

                            a way to make sense of the body action relating to moving the momentum through the ball and to the target..


                            the briefest thought I can give you on this is that - the only perfect body action in a golf swing, is that action which is most conforming to the needs of action to target..it's a response or reaction to the intention and resulting action of force travelling to the clubhead and into/through the ball ..not the cause of anything.

                            one's setup ultimately is the determinant to any hope of success ..in that you can either set up to conform 'fluidly' (like Water...) or in a state of resistance ..which can create 'power' but at a physical cost.


                            so a quick summary:

                            ponder for a second how one could 'not move the eyes' remain in balance and send momentum and see a line of action to target ..while trying to maintain the swing radius of the original setup through the swing.. (thereby hitting the ball)?

                            again - you can't ..

                            the arms alone can't ..body rotation ..'pulling the arms through' can't ..coordinating them ..can't either..

                            don't get me wrong ..you can find an action that will work for a time ..but one day it will not look or 'map' the same ..and it will stop ..never to be seen or found again..

                            I also don't claim to have this 'all figured out' or even have a particularly valuable set of questions..but they are questions that I rarely see asked on this board - not even in passing,

                            so - please consider for a moment ..and from a perspective of where I'm hoping to take you, gentle reader, with this.. why would I ask them ?

                            answer: it's my only hope of helping you find a way to slow down and challenge an existing pattern of thinking.

                            it's only so much 'what 'you' do' ..actually mostly what you 'do' is remain flexible, supple and in balance - it's where the speed goes..and what 'it' does that makes the difference. To be a student of this..it's and understanding of how the handle of the club works relative to the club head through the swing..

                            your body rotation is related to that..

                            assuming you find a path into that 'plateau' of learning and understanding ..the visuals will kick right in relative to action to target.

                            I may or may not ever expand on this - at least on this forum ..


                            cheers for now

                            k_f

                            from the hidden Ravine below 13th at CN G&CC
                            tu nunquam hic

                            Secret Swing Tech c/o Pigaman @ Crackpot Labs

                            wisdomingolf.com/index.php?option=com_ku...&id=47972&Itemid=225

                            let energy instead of style define you.

                            Proud Member 'Quote Yourself Club'

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                            • #15
                              Your point '4' Kid is the holy grail. Welcome to the dance floor.

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