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  • #46
    Hi guys,

    I have been following this thread since gmonkey's inception, channeling my inner Ralph Ellison, trying hard to stay "out of the way"...
    Having been inspired by kid's latest musing, (I agree with him completely on the sequence that I also would re-read this thread) offer my one and only comment on the whole thing...

    We have a target out there somewhere. That sounds so obvious (thank you Captain), but I truly believe that this is where many of us wander off-course...
    And we firmly place that image, masquerading as an INTENTION in our Mind...

    There are billions and billions (probably an infinite number) of "trajectories" available to us to access that target... Pick one.

    There is a corresponding "sling"-arc (or circle) that will complement that trajectory...

    I believe that the club swinging motion is INDEPENDENT of our bodily movements. We move in order to COMPLEMENT and COOPERATE with this circle; not to CREATE it?
    No need to create it... That circle is already there. It always has been; always will be...
    I do what the circle requests of me.....no more; no less.

    I truly endorse the "railroad-tracks" concept; but ONLY for ALIGNMENT.
    My feet are on one rail....the Circle, tilted around me such that my sternum is in the "center" touches upon the other rail.

    Now all that is required of me is to invoke Newton's First Law of Motion to get everything started...
    Initiate a motion to the "rear" in a direction ON my "target-line", but directly AWAY from the "target"...

    and to channel my favorite concept of our Chairman.......get out of the way.

    I trust to Evolution, my brain's wisdom to articulate the specific electrical-impulses to my muscles, etc in order to accomplish the INTENT that I have placed in my Mind.
    The same way I trusted it to make all the required bodily adjustments that are required to maneuver my automobile to get me to the Beach on Sunday.

    That's it. No interference; just get out of the way.

    Hopefully I arrived here this morning quietly... I will go away now, equally quietly....

    Be water, my friends

    dude abides
    "OLD" Forum Participation

    Entry Date: 18-JAN-2011
    Posts: 1813
    Thank You: 1048

    "Be water, my friends"

    Comment


    • kid_fullerene
      kid_fullerene commented
      Editing a comment
      Hi Dude..

      looks like you did get your 'soapbox' back from me and as always it does seem to work better for its owner than the 'borrowers' (like me). Now based on my 'Field Guide' Swing Identification Protocols ..even sight unseen.. I have a fairly good idea of what your '1st Law of Motion Swing' must look like.. as the 'Circle of Swing' can only become manifest with 'Train Tracks Alignment' in a few proscribed ways..

      if the Dude shares his 'first thing out of the way' ..the rest of the swing will all intentions 'draw itself' which is core to the idea(s) that I trying to share. I had an interesting experience the other day where I finally and actually had a sense of what the actual 'key' or 'cue' is/was.. at least in context with the swing/alignment concepts I've spent real time on for the past year. Got around to feeling clubhead weight ..and got my 'out of the way' going.. the 'body electric reaction' ..and from everything ..and I mean 'everything' from putts on up to Drivers.. made golf shots. Was a great feeling ..because it is the 'right' great feeling..

      I can't speak to the 'Dude's' 'true intention' ..but if I know his target line and alignment to intended flight ..I am fairly confident I can predict his physical manifestation of his 'out of the wayness' of the 'Swing Force'.... which is really just the golf equivalent of a fairly neat party trick. So here is where I'll rest my 'case' (for the moment at least) ..as there is not any one 'perfect swing system' or 'optimal swing unicorn' that can be ridden..there's basically degrees of physical compliance or 'being like water' to the needs of the swing. I can't make myself or any of my treasured WIG friends better golfers..but I can be of some use in trying to help all of you find places NOT to look.. as always I appreciate you, Dude, and appreciate all my WIG friends for your sustained indulgence for my little mental romps around Crackpot National Golf & CC (est 2011) .. 'try and be like Dude' & do 'what the circle requests of you' see where you see the intersection of how you see the universe and where it intersects with where you are and are trying to go.. of course, like any good universe, it will bring you back to where you started, only you have changed..it seemingly remains eternal..or has it? cheers..k_f

  • #47
    so in our discussion of sending momentum through the ball and into an area of say 'the outside edge of the intermediate target' ..the good people of Callaway ..thought about it as well and put these TruVis golf balls on the market..

    I honestly had no idea why these were out, I literally thought they were an affectation ..a case of 'well, I don't play soccer, I would never use these..'

    so much for an open mind..

    but from this thread..it finally occurred to me to look once again ..and sure enough..



    TruVis = Truer Vision? again I just put that together..apparently the obvious doesn't always get into the area above my shoulders..and I stipulate to my own considerable ignorance.



    anyway - playing ChromeSoft ..they are wonderful for my game ..but as the Dude so often says, 'it's part of a system' and what works for me, may not suit your game at all..

    hope you're way ahead of me on this 'soccer ball' thing..

    but if you're not..your secret is safe with me...

    cheers

    k_f
    from the hidden Ravine below 13th at CN G&CC
    tu nunquam hic

    Secret Swing Tech c/o Pigaman @ Crackpot Labs

    wisdomingolf.com/index.php?option=com_ku...&id=47972&Itemid=225

    let energy instead of style define you.

    Proud Member 'Quote Yourself Club'

    Comment


    • #48
      Kid,

      I just got home and saw your latest addition to this thread. Good find on that video and observations of the Chrome Soft Truvis ball. I use the Chrome Soft also . . . both the regular white one, and also the yellow/black Truvis version.

      The video you just posted led me to another one that I think is funny. I tried to inject a little humor earlier in this thread, but it didn't go as I intended. So let me try again to add some humor in here with this video . . .

      Last edited by Cally; 4 weeks ago. Reason: typo

      Comment


      • kid_fullerene
        kid_fullerene commented
        Editing a comment
        all good ..and while 'Dying is Easy, Comedy is Hard' is the axiom..I think here, you've pulled the intended humor off quite well..and it makes me want to try those yellow and black soccer balls more than ever!

    • #49
      Kid,

      If you didn't see this one yet, I thought I would add it here as I agree with his assessment of this ball, especially what he says about the short game and the durability of these being quite good . . .

      Comment


      • #50
        Found a few Calloway Soccer looking chrome soft balls. Didn't have much of an opinion about the ball until I saw these few videos. Still have one in my bag and I will pay more attention to its play ability. I will be looking at the ball a bit differently now.

        Comment


        • Ron I
          Ron I commented
          Editing a comment
          Played the Callaway soccer style ball. When I putted it, I noticed the roll on the ball easily. However, this can be achieved by marking your ball with a line.

          When striking the ball with an iron or wood, the soccer markings did give me a visual target for hitting a draw or a fade. However, I really didn't focus on the spot when striking the ball. much like a soccer player kicking it to curve right or left. The design may or may not have helped.

          I will say the Callaway chromesoft is a nice ball to play with or without the soccer design. For me. I can't say that there is a difference in ball striking. There may be a subconscious benefit to the soccer design.

      • #51
        Hi Costa. What do you think about my thread then? You not feeling it?

        Im on the same page with your backswing thoughts but this thread was not about that.

        'do what the circle requests of me.....no more; no less'. What does the circle request of you?

        I was trying to put into words (and pictures) what the circle requests of me.

        Kid ...On the 'soccer ball' pattern. Surely this is only good for putts and chips. You aint gonna see any pattern when that thing is launched at speed from a drive. A gimmick me thinks.






        Comment


        • #52
          Originally posted by Gmonkey View Post
          Click image for larger version

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          This is not how the club travels but its my intent and feel.

          Anyone have similar feel? Or even understand my garble !!
          The reason why the straight line represents your intent and feel is because you eye line and swing line point in the same direction.

          This is good.

          You need not perceive. You need to actually see 'where you're going' as a straight line. Once you tune into this straight line and become aware of it, then you can determine whether your swing motion keeps you tuned to this straight line, or takes you off this straight line.

          The swing as an arc is purely an academic topic and doesn't help one swing effectively.

          If you really want to go deeper down the rabbit hole and understand the gap in Shawn's explanation of what he's doing, then google 'arcs and tangent line'. Understand what a tangent line is to an arc, to start with.

          Riddle me this--why, how, or does Shawn stand open to the target line, yet hit draws to the flag?
          swing down the line

          Comment


          • Cally
            Cally commented
            Editing a comment
            Thanks Wooltie!

            As far as my mind entertaining two targets at the same time, my mind can sometimes have trouble entertaining one target at a time!

            On the part about closed shoulders relative to feet line, you make good points. I'll just add that Shawn talks about our static mind talking to us when we are at address compared to having a dynamic frame of mind at address. Shawn is obviously excellent at focusing, and engaging his dynamic mind at all points in the process; and he makes this stuff look very easy.

          • wooltie
            wooltie commented
            Editing a comment
            I don't really think in terms of static or dynamic. I'm swinging, so there is motion. I'm motioning in a specific direction. That direction is where I want the ball to end.

            I look at the back of the ball, in clear focus, and I fully intend to hit the back of the ball.

          • Cally
            Cally commented
            Editing a comment
            Yesterday I was going to post a couple videos in regards to the issue of closed shoulders relative to the feet line, not in an effort to convince anyone who is of a different opinion, but just for the benefit of others who may be following this thread and who may not understand Shawn's approach to this or may be having trouble implementing this concept.

            I hesitated to cause controversy so I decided against posting these as I realize that Wooltie, et al., is now doing something different than Shawn's method; however, on second thought I figured for those of you who are perhaps new to WIG and aren't familiar with this closed shoulders concept relative to the feet line, here's a good video where Shawn explains his thinking and application of this, and what I was saying about Shawn differentiating between static thinking and dynamic thinking, and allowing the arc to track itself . . .

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X16z-hgeGJY

            And here's a more recent video where Shawn expands on this, and where he specifically says that the alignment of the shoulders has nothing to do with the path of the swing . . .

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGpQBU06ZUE

            Again, I'm not trying to convince anyone who has found another way that works for them, I'm just throwing these in here as general edification for others, especially for anyone reading this thread who is new to WIG.

        • #53
          Wooltie gets it. That much is clear. But he is also finding it hard to explain because many swing thoughts can apply to different intents.

          We are all swinging, we all have a target in mind, we all look at the back of the ball and we all fully intend to hit the back of the ball at some stage in the swing.

          So somewhere in this thread we have sort out the feel and intent.

          My thought is that the apex of the swing is after the ball. Its not the ball. Low point can show this to be true. But if you simply relocate the arc toward target with a feeling of ball first and swing with same intent then this will not work. You are heading right or having to throw the right hand at the ball. If your swing intent is left diagram I doubt you would take a divot after the ball on a straight shot. Its a drop with lag intent hitting past the ball then boom straight down the tangent line.

          So pysically the ball is stuck with an upwards blow in the swing arc but connects the ball on a downwards strike on its way to the apex of the swing!!! Some may find that gibberish but this is what happens.

          My focus is the tangent as Wooltie says and I also have one focus and target which is down the line. Then vertical drop with horizontal tug. The reaction to the force of the upswing will prevent sway and too much lateral move toward target.

          The rest is just nuances that are tailored to individuals. To get exactly the same from person to person is impossible. Micro changes to a swing are probably only relevant to what you are doing yourself. I would be willing to bet that Hogans secrect was just something he discovered that was relevant to him. His set up. His intent or whatever. Maybe im wrong and the secret was something that could apply to most golfers. If so then why the hell didnt he put it in big bold capitals in his books. Probably because it only worked with what he was doing. Who knows???

          When this first clicked a while ago I most noticed it difficult to manage lag on short shots. (shots from say 15 yards in). The temptation had always been to over backswing (even overswing the mini backswing for a short shot). So now for short chips and pitches I still feel lag and still have the drop and target focus but I have found Phil Micklesons hinge and hold works well. Its still a lag strike. It is not holding and hitting at the ball. Just an observation.


          If you have the tangent intent (which im going to start calling this now) then you have no fear whatsoever about turning your back to target in the backswing.

          Make a backswing (not your regular backswing) make an effort to turn with your back to target (just like Shawn, Jack, Arnie , Bubba , B Jones, Daly et al and then think does it feel weird or impossible to strike from there? If you are having a crisis about how they are getting back and through that ball then you simply have not got the tangent intent right and more work is required.


          Now just to give you an example of how logic can apply to different swings here is a great example.

          I said 'So pysically the ball is stuck with an upwards blow in the swing arc but connects the ball on a downwards strike on its way to the apex of the swing!!!'

          Now someone could take that and try it and find themselves moving away from target with a reverse pivot to achieve this. I never had a reverse pivot and I always wondered how someone could join up the dots to get into that kind of trouble. But there it is right there. That reverse pivot guy has concluded he needs an upward swing on the ball with a deccending blow and up pops the idea of the reverse pivot to achieve it. Incorrect intent is all that is wrong. The reverse pivot guy that looks quite funny has just taken a slight wrong turn in understanding.

          The good thing is guys that this is like whistling. Once you have made a whistle it will only be a matter of time before you can whistle a tune.










          Last edited by Gmonkey; 4 weeks ago.

          Comment


          • #54
            hi WIG Friends..


            in reading Gmonkey's latest ..I'm drawn to the description of how the clubhead travels through the ball..upward intent but with a downward transit..(I think I have that right(ish)).

            a sort of how can this happen ..a great paradox.

            do I have that right?

            so - I'll assume for a second that I might - and offer then a couple of questions:

            1. Does Shawn say the head of the club head travels on its own Arc?

            sub question : does that arc travel in exactly the same rate on the downswing as does the rest of the ACU ..?

            2. Shawn talks about observing the blur - as a direction of momentum through the ball - where does the blur come from?

            3. Describe for me as best you can - WIG or otherwise ..what your notion of clubhead release is (not so much a question but an inquiry as to perception)

            4. Where would a divot emerge from and how does that work dynamically? (to borrow a phrase from Shawn)

            5. earlier in this thread - I attempted to outline how swing sequences could play into potential release patterns and how they might look to the eye..so are eyeline, target line and perceived swing line all the same?

            6. where ..and I mean give me an area ..on the back of the ball are you trying to hit..?

            I don't believe Shawn so much discusses hitting the ball but allowing momentum directed through it to perform a task as cutting the grass in front of it..a sort of 'whipping action' ..

            so Bonus Question -

            7. is this whipping action directed through path alone or is there an additional or perhaps different dynamic in play?


            Finally .

            how does the fall action become combined with the ground forces and body rotation to produce incremental power? what would that look like in terms of club head?

            do they share similar characteristics ..but follow different order..due to sequencing of the body and the setup to the swing line?

            well..

            plenty to mull over if anyone chooses to have a 'go' at one or more of them..

            cheers for now

            k_f
            from the hidden Ravine below 13th at CN G&CC
            tu nunquam hic

            Secret Swing Tech c/o Pigaman @ Crackpot Labs

            wisdomingolf.com/index.php?option=com_ku...&id=47972&Itemid=225

            let energy instead of style define you.

            Proud Member 'Quote Yourself Club'

            Comment


            • #55
              Cally Just looked at that Shoulder line video of Shawns. I have no problem with it. If anything it reinforces target intent because an arc along Shawn's shoulder line would slam into the board. It does not matter if Wooltie sets up different. The intent is still tangent to target.

              Shawn at 4.39 'So now the path is very much inline with the direction I want the ball to go'

              Comment


              • Cally
                Cally commented
                Editing a comment
                Yes, but it seems to me that the direction Shawn wants the ball to go can have two different meanings . . . the direction he wants the ball to start; and where he wants the ball to end.

                Anyway, since the word 'tangent' came up, just for fun I thought I would put this old Shawn video in here too where he talks about the arc of the swing versus the target line, and the point where the two meet, also referred to as the 'point of tangency' . . .

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gd86U65wpvI

              • Cally
                Cally commented
                Editing a comment
                BTW, off of the subject here, but has anyone else had it with the 'Tathata' golf commercials that seem to appear just about every time a Shawn video is viewed? I'm at the point where these commercials are beyond obnoxious.
                Last edited by Cally; 4 weeks ago. Reason: Spelling

              • wooltie
                wooltie commented
                Editing a comment
                n WIG, you swing in the direction you want to start the ball because the clubface controls whether the ball draws or fades. *So, you pick your target e.g. the flag, then use the intermediate point and ball to establish a straight line to this target. *From there, you swing to either right or left of the intermediate point, which either draws or fades the ball to the target, respectively. *The draw/fade depends upon how open/closed the clubface is. *For example, if you setup to draw the ball, and swing right of the intermediate point, but open the clubface to create practically no draw spin, then the ball will fly straight. *People call this type of shot a push. *In reality, you just hit a straight shot that started and ended on the arc's tangent line.

                So, in the mind one focuses on swinging towards one direction, knowing full well that ball will end up in another direction. *Put another way, if you want to throw out the 'target focus' stuff, your target is actually the direction that you're swinging, not the direction that you want the ball to end up. *Like I said previously, if I'm doing WIG and I want to draw the ball to the green, then I would swing to a spot located 15-20 yards right of the green. *That spot is my target, not where I want the ball to actually land (on the green), even though I know the ball will draw to the green.

                I prefer to swing to where I want the ball to land (the green), and I prefer to see the line on the ground extending from the ball, down the fairway, straight to the green. *And I swing down this line.

            • #56
              Originally posted by kid_fullerene View Post
              hi WIG Friends..


              in reading Gmonkey's latest ..I'm drawn to the description of how the clubhead travels through the ball..upward intent but with a downward transit..(I think I have that right(ish)).

              a sort of how can this happen ..a great paradox.

              do I have that right? YES AND PUT BETTER THAN I DID.

              so - I'll assume for a second that I might - and offer then a couple of questions:

              1. Does Shawn say the head of the club head travels on its own Arc? Factually the club head will travel along the lines of a double pendulum. But are we talking feel here and intent.

              sub question : does that arc travel in exactly the same rate on the downswing as does the rest of the ACU ..? maybe initially drop at same rate but the club head will at impact be swinging faster than ACU. Once the inertia of the club head catches the ACU then thats why you get a hip stall. You can see stalls in trebuchet slow motion video. Same reason for them. Some advanced trebuchets have multi stall actions. Science way beyond a golf swing.

              2. Shawn talks about observing the blur - as a direction of momentum through the ball - where does the blur come from? Club head. He often talks about the blur cutting dandilion flower.

              3. Describe for me as best you can - WIG or otherwise ..what your notion of clubhead release is (not so much a question but an inquiry as to perception) Club head release is swing forces reacting to the weight of the club with the correct swing and correct grip through the strike.

              4. Where would a divot emerge from and how does that work dynamically? (to borrow a phrase from Shawn) A divot will emerge target side of where the ball lay. Dynamically the ball is not being hit at. The swing impacts the ball on route and low point will be after the ball in an iron swing set up to target.

              5. earlier in this thread - I attempted to outline how swing sequences could play into potential release patterns and how they might look to the eye..so are eyeline, target line and perceived swing line all the same? Ive never thought of eyeline before. I have in fishing but not in golf. Wooltie says it has an impact and ive no reason to doubt it.

              6. where ..and I mean give me an area ..on the back of the ball are you trying to hit..? I dont aim at back of ball. Wooltie or Cally may do. In any case its more of predicting where the swing will impact though rather than hit. Standard answer is 5 pm on a clock but Im more with the dandilion cutting thing than an area of the ball.

              I don't believe Shawn so much discusses hitting the ball but allowing momentum directed through it to perform a task as cutting the grass in front of it..a sort of 'whipping action' .. That is the feeling I have also.

              so Bonus Question -

              7. is this whipping action directed through path alone or is there an additional or perhaps different dynamic in play? Lots of things in play. Intent and path is the biggie tho.


              Finally .

              how does the fall action become combined with the ground forces and body rotation to produce incremental power? The same way javelin, a throw, a baseball hit is etc.... what would that look like in terms of club head? You are catching a fall and using rotory power from the ground to swing a weight. You are not throwing a weight outwards. You are pulling a weight around and reacting against that. At impact the weight is still travelling to its destination. Like twirling a ball on a string. you are pulling that string not pushing anything outwards.

              do they share similar characteristics ..but follow different order..due to sequencing of the body and the setup to the swing line? CNS will sort all that. Ive got no idea how my mouth whistles dixie. What sequences take place or whatever. You are into perfecting your tune. No longer learning how to whistle.

              well..

              plenty to mull over if anyone chooses to have a 'go' at one or more of them..





              cheers for now

              k_f
              Dont take any of what I say as gospel. Im always open to debate and reasoning if necessary.

              catch the fall and swing at the ball = Left.
              Catch the fall and swing right = right or left or sometimes straight.
              Catch the fall and swing to target and boom ....golden.
              Last edited by Gmonkey; 4 weeks ago.

              Comment


              • kid_fullerene
                kid_fullerene commented
                Editing a comment
                GM ..thanks for having a 'go' at those 'thought questions' and 'thought experiments' I am re-reading and processing your various 'takes' on them and will see where it leads me. I have come to believe strongly that once force has gone into the clubhead and it is accelerated ..it becomes its own actor its own 'agent' that will seek its own path.. All technique(s) are in service to that ..and that's where and when that the conversation expands beyond path.. My opinion at least, but I believe that as the club head is acting now in accordance to its own rules some physics and feedback come into play.. and it's not only in how one sees path, but how one is setup to see release (and not interfere..or think for it..the Dude says ..'do nothing' and I think he means it) if you wanted to approach this from a 'path perspective' a way to think about it ..is that you take the club away on a path of intention and once you feel the weight and let it fall..all you can do is 'get out of its way' or allow your body to release it on a path of its choosing . probably a bit too esoteric..but it's a sort of ..'where would the club head go if the club head was allowed to go where it wanted unimpeded?' For what it's worth ..the various swing sequences play into it ..both in terms of optics..but also in terms of the feels that are associated with those optics.. anyway...off I go ..time to give this some more thought ..cheers k_f

            • #57
              Think about this.

              When you observe an airplane in the sky overhead, flying towards its destination, do u see the airplane traveling in a straight line?
              swing down the line

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